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Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by 29athrowaway on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @01:44PM (#38463378)
What kind of power grid can supply electricity to a country full of EVs?
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by taylodl on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @02:22PM (#38463955)
The average American drives 37 miles per day. EVs can travel 4 miles per kWH. That's 9.25 kWH required for the average American, every day. The average American household consume 30 kWH of power every day.

You may think we need we therefore need a 33% increase in power generation just for every household to have a single EV, but that's not quite true. We need to factor in that residential electrical usage only comprises 40% of total electrical usage. That 33% increase suddenly becomes a 13.2% increase.

Even that's not the whole picture because refining oil to make gasoline requires 5 kWH of power per gallon. Most of that power comes from burning oil, but 40% of it is coming off the grid. That's 2 kWH of power coming off the grid to refine that 1 gallon of gas. Since the average American drives 37 miles per day, we'll say they're consuming roughly 1.5 gallons of gas per day, which used 3 kWH of power from the grid to refine.

If you work it all through you end up needing an 8% increase in generation to support every single US household having an EV (and it's an additional 8% for every additional EV). Sounds like a lot, right? No. There are vast differences in the demand for power from on-peak (during the day) and off-peak (during the evening) power. Vast enough that households can charge two EVs at night during the off-peak period and still not constrain the grid.

Getting back to your question - what kind of power grid can supply electricity to a country full of EVs? The grid we already have.

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by thmsths on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @02:28PM (#38464035)
This is a real eye opener, thank you for your comment. I always thought that grid upgrades for EVs were squarely in the "feasible" category so I always dismissed the "but what about the grid?" anti EV arguments. But I did not realize we were almost there already!
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by 29athrowaway on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @07:01PM (#38467261)
And the net reduction on pollution? zero

Because by the time the EV left the dealership, it already polluted more.

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by belltaco on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @08:47PM (#38468194)
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by Sohcahtoa82 on Thursday November 30, 2023 @02:53AM (#38470867)
Yes, the carbon footprint of building an EV exceeds that of an ICE. Nobody at all disputes this.

But over the life of the car, because they're not burning gasoline, the overall carbon footprint of an EV is lower. Even if your electricity comes from 100% coal, eventually the carbon footprint of the ICE will exceed the EV because burning coal at a massive scale to create electricity is more efficient than a small combustion engine, where well over half the energy is just waste heat.

And if your electricity comes from 100% renewables, then the carbon footprint is merely the manufacturing and will be significantly lower over the life of the car.

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by 29athrowaway on Thursday November 30, 2023 @06:58AM (#38472435)
Now ask yourself, how much of the pollution comes from cars? and does all the pollution comes from tailpipe emissions?

There is more pollution from breaks and tires than tailpipes. And EVs still use those.

Then, if gas lawn equipment like a mower or leaf blower pollutes more than several cars, then how much do you think the machines use in mining, agriculture, wood industry, etc. pollute?

More than 90% of the pollution comes from that equipment. None of those use a catalytic converter.

So even if you replace every car with an EV, the net pollution reduction will be marginal.

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by belltaco on Thursday November 30, 2023 @08:44AM (#38473423)
> There is more pollution from breaks and tires than tailpipes

This is false. There is some pollution from brakes and tires but nowhere close to the pollution from tailpipes. Also regen braking reduces almost all the pollution from brakes.

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by taylodl on Thursday November 30, 2023 @07:37AM (#38472731)
> then how much do you think the machines use in mining, agriculture, wood industry, etc. pollute?

Who cares?

Are there millions of pieces of this equipment in our cities? No? EVs cut down on smog in cities. They also cut down on CO2 output. These are substantial wins.

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by Sohcahtoa82 on Thursday November 30, 2023 @12:46PM (#38476487)
> There is more pollution from breaks and tires than tailpipes.

Absolute hogwash. Where could you even get that idea?

How much material is there in a set of tires that you will lose over the life of the tire? How many miles will it take to lose that material? Now consider how many hundreds of gallons of gas you will burn before those tires wear out.

> So even if you replace every car with an EV, the net pollution reduction will be marginal.

[0] According to the EPA, 29% of greenhouse gases emitted in the USA come from Transportation. Of that, only 58% of that comes from "Light-Duty Vehicles", ie, cars. That means if we replaced all cars with EVs, it would be ~17% reduction in GHG.

Whether or not 17% is "marginal" is somewhat subjective on your definition of the word.

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-...

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by audunw on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @04:56PM (#38465877)
Norways. With no upgrades. The Norwegian Water Resources and Energy Directorate has a study showing the details. That’s assuming that most people charge at night. But that’s already happening. Setting up a modern EV to charge based on electricity prices is dead simple. And since electricity is more expensive when the load on the grid is highest, people wanting to charge their cars in the cheapest way will necessarily charge in a way that doesn’t overload the grid.

Norway does have a pretty strong grid. It has primarily used electricity for heating, with some wood but not much gas. People are transitioning to heat pumps and improving insulation as well so the load on the grid from heating is actually going down too.

Other countries may eventually need some grid upgrades. But how is that an insurmountable issue? The grid has been upgraded in response to increased demands many times before.

The same battery tech going into EVs is helping improve and stabilise the grid, and helping some people reduce their energy consumption from the grid to near zero with solar+battery storage. So seems like EVs help contribute to the exact kind of R&D needed to take some of the added load off the grid.

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by Sohcahtoa82 on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @03:54PM (#38465166)
This question gets asked so often despite being answered that I refuse to believe that anybody asking it is actually interested in learning the answer and thinks they just have a clever anti-EV "gotcha!" question.

Most of the grid will handle it fine. People in very rural areas where it's common to only get 60 amp service might have a problem. But they probably weren't going to get an EV anyways.

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by huijzer on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @01:48PM (#38463443)
Today's power grid with some upgrades. The 1910s power grid also wouldn't be able to handle today's load.
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by nathanaldensr on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @01:56PM (#38463567)
> with some upgrades

You are vastly, vastly underestimating the amount of investment required. It's in the trillions of dollars.

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by afpx on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @03:48PM (#38465083)
I’m more concerned with lack of chargers. Between DC and Pittsburgh, there are only a few chargers. There are probably more than 100 gas stations.
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by instagib on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @04:11PM (#38465377)
Wait until all vehicles can charge at the working Tesla network which includes a fee for charging past 90% charge on a $1 per minute basis. Then another charge of a full charging station per minute fee.

https://electrek.co/2023/11/21/tesla-launches-supercharger-c...

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by Kirby64 on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @04:47PM (#38465768)
Are you suggesting these fees are bad or predatory? Because those fees only accumulate if you basically waste your time at a full charging station hogging a spot, while others could actually use it at its full capacity while you’re only sipping 20-30kW (or, zero, in the case of idle fees).
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by instagib on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @06:19PM (#38466746)
No. Relating to not enough stations. Soon all vehicles will be able to charge there and fees on top in case they didn’t know.
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by bryanlarsen on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @02:07PM (#38463712)
Hardly. Perhaps you're confusing with the costs of a transition to a carbon-free grid. That will cost trillions up front but save even more trillions over time.

Electric vehicles will add 20% to our electric energy requirements, but a lot less than 20% to our power requirements. Peak power is ~6PM during times of extreme weather. Some cars are being charged at that time, but most are charged overnight.

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by acdha on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @02:21PM (#38463928)
Even if that’s not the exaggeration it appears to be, fossil fuel production alone is subsidized to the tune of trillions of dollars per year. If you’re saying we can stop that going forward and use less than a year’s savings to make one-time improvements which will prevent disasters and improve health for millions of people, that sounds like a great deal even if we had a choice (which we don’t).
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by huijzer on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @02:06PM (#38463698)
Does that number include new ways of doing things? For example, more decentralized generation/storage?
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by dzhiurgis on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @02:20PM (#38463918)
In my case it’s 50% of cars cost. Maybe 25% if I tried really hard.
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by bryanlarsen on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @01:58PM (#38463594)
The US went from something like 10% of buildings with air conditioning to 90% in two decades. That was a harder problem than switching all gasoline cars to EV.
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by binarymax on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @01:48PM (#38463448)
Related and interesting: my local monopoly utility company RG&E is pushing for EVs hard. They stand to make a fortune if everyone all of a sudden needs to plug a car or truck into their grid.
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by TKnab on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @02:27PM (#38464022)
Hey there, fellow Rochesterian. Too bad the county declined to do that feasibility study on replacing RG&E with a public utility... That said, yeah, personally I would like an EV, but RG&E's push is somewhat off-putting, especially with the insane billing issues I, and many others [1], have had recently.

[1] https://www.wxxinews.org/local-news/2023-02-07/complaints-ov...

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by adrianN on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @01:46PM (#38463420)
The existing power grid basically with maybe some local improvements. An ev the charges while parked averages to less power than an electric kettle.
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by boatsie on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @01:57PM (#38463576)
A charging EV can draw 30-50 amps @220V, much more than a kettle…
Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by acdha on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @02:23PM (#38463969)
Hence the word “averages”: most people are going to do that every week or two overnight, when demand is well below peak.

If you want a harder problem, it’s electric building heat in cold climates.

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by dzhiurgis on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @02:24PM (#38463975)
Keyword - averages. 50km a day is about 7kwh which is about 500w on average.

That said my basic calculation for New Zealand is additional 50% is needed. Probably easy peasy if we get over lobby given how much existing hydro we have and capacity for sun and wind.

Using Chinese offshore wind turbine costs my estimate was 1/3rd of some major railway project cost we are considering…

Re:EVs have more reliability problems than gas cars, says Co... by belltaco on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @01:57PM (#38463582)
1920: What kind of infrastructure can supply gasoline to a country full of cars? Meanwhile horse driven carriages have a strong supply chain.