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Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by fallingknife on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @08:32AM (#38459102)
The idea of paying for use instead of data collection is a good one. The problem is that the companies are treating it as another money grab instead of a reasonable alternative payment option. They don't make anywhere close to $10 a month selling ads to a user. If they wanted to offer $2 bucks a month, they would probably still profit more on this, and it would also be a reasonable deal for the user.

edit: not correct. Closer to $20 per month per user in the US for FB actually.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by dkyc on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @08:40AM (#38459184)
> They don't make anywhere close to $10 a month selling ads to a user.

This is somewhat incorrect. In Europe (which this is about), Facebook's average revenue per user is about $70 per year (~$6/mo), and in the US it's around $232 (~$19/mo). Taking into account the additional overhead of collecting payments from individual users, support, etc., it's definitely not orders of magnitude away.

All data from Meta's last annual report: https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0001326801/e574646...

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by vanilla_nut on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @10:03AM (#38460188)
Average revenue per user is $70/year in the EU and $230 in the US. But how much of that is profit? How to costs compare between serving a user ads and serving an ad-free user?

Server costs for images, text, and the occasional video can't be that high per user at Facebook's scale of billions.

But costs for the Rube Goldberg machine of ad hosting, recommendations, bidding, and serving? There's a whole lot of backend infra and middleware behind that. We should assume, at the very least, that ad-free users are cheaper for Facebook (unless they go through all of the backend recommendation processes for all users but simply hide ads from ad-free users). I assume that with some optimization ad-free users ought to be significantly cheaper to serve.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by fallingknife on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @01:26PM (#38463101)
The backend cost per user is going to be about the same for a user anywhere in the world. So we can set an upper bound on the cost at the level of revenue per user in the market that generated the least revenue per user. That's going to scale with GDP per capita, so I feel safe saying that there are many markets where they get less than $10 per user per year, and therefore their marginal cost per user is less than that.
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by fallingknife on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @08:43AM (#38459220)
I guess I was wrong about that. I remember reading years ago how shockingly little revenue targeted ads actually generate per user, but that must have changed. Also curious why FB is making 3x as much per user in the US vs Europe.
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by wkat4242 on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:06AM (#38459457)
US customers have more spending power than the average EU customer. So the ads are worth more as there's more opportunity to sell.
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by consp on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:15AM (#38459553)
GDP with PPP compensated is on par or better in NW Europe and for all of the EU it's about 70% of the USA (which has about 100m more people than the USA). You'd expect it to be a lot closer.

Yes it is most likely to be less but not a factor of 3 simply based on purchasing power alone.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by wkat4242 on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:16AM (#38459565)
I'm sure it's not the only factor but it's surely one. Here in Spain we really make a lot less than in NW Europe. central and eastern Europe are even worse off.
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by a1o on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @10:10AM (#38460293)
What is NW Europe?
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by still_grokking on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @11:39AM (#38461643)
Do you mean US advertisers are paying three times more to FB than the advertisers in the EU?

Please don't confuse things. FB users aren't FB's customers. FB doesn't get any money directly from the (on average just a little bit) richer US users.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by _jal on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:46AM (#38459947)
The US also has close to no data privacy protection, so you can also practice whatever targeting and manipulative nonsense you want on your subjects.

The delta there shows what that's worth.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by Nextgrid on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @04:05PM (#38465309)
And generally no consumer protection, so you can milk the marks out of more money than you can in Europe.
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by jerf on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:52AM (#38460041)
"Shockingly little revenue targeted ads generate per user" is also relative to the context. I bang on these numbers a lot on HN because for many of us here, the amount of damage Facebook does to our lives, the amount of ads it shoves in our face, and the way it has contorted an entire industry into surveillance capitalism, is way, way more than $20/month worth of damage to our lives, culture, and society. It is also a good way to counter the frequently-proposed "what if the companies share ad revenue with their users?", which along with being sort of a "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" problem if you really analyze what that entails, has the even more fatal problem that there really isn't any money to do that with. If we cut you in for 50% of the ads you see in a month, you might be looking at a whopping $15-20 a month, or, pretty close to a single hour at what is roughly the de facto minimum wage. Even if we ignore how that instantly pushes all these companies from megaprofitable behemoths to bleeding money out of every orifice, $15-20/month isn't enough to make a compelling story on that front.

I think a lot of people have a mental model based on the size of these companies that they must be making hundreds of dollars a month per user, and it's good to run the numbers to show they don't so society can make more reasonable plans.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by AlecSchueler on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @08:47AM (#38459260)
Europe has stronger privacy laws.
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by Zak on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @08:50AM (#38459284)
I'd guess it's a combination of three things: GDPR reducing the effectiveness of targeted ads, the online advertising industry being more mature/established in the US, and Europe being generally more fragmented, reducing the size of ad campaigns.
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by meindnoch on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:07AM (#38459472)
Europeans are less likely to fall for ads.
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by still_grokking on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @11:46AM (#38461730)
People are on average the same everywhere, I think.

Culture may differ, but human brains work the same in the end.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by simion314 on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:37AM (#38459811)
What is HN opinion on the practice to one day you show a popup to your user with new terms, you either accept or you leave , no way to enter and export your data or contacts. It is kind of shitty IMO all this ToS that are always updating, even with paid products you are forced into accepting the ToS or get fcked
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by badwolf on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @03:05PM (#38464529)
Also important to remember this is _average_ revenue per user. Consider that the cohort of users that are more likely to pay the monthly subscription are probably more valuable ad targets (more disposable income to spend online)
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by d1sxeyes on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:29AM (#38459709)
I know you’ve acknowledged the numbers in your response are off, but nevertheless there’s a seemingly problematic assumption underlying this statement even if your numbers held true: there’s no reason that Facebook should only ask users to cover the opportunity cost difference between having ads and not having ads.

Although the “appropriateness” of the fee may be called into question, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that Facebook will successfully argue that with operating costs of around 6 billion per month, and around 3 billion MAU (i.e. around 2 USD/user), with good SaaS margins expected to be around 80%, a charge of around 10 USD per month is not “inappropriate”, which is almost exactly what they’re charging.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by wkat4242 on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:05AM (#38459442)
> The idea of paying for use instead of data collection is a good one.

This is not what this is.

It's paying or seeing ads. Tracking is done anyway. For the ads they do still sell on other platforms.

What should really be the case is to have untracked ads as an option instead of targeted ones.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by JacobSeated on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @08:35AM (#38459139)
It's the average per user, not a precise figure that fits on every user, but nevertheless I have seen no evidence to suggest that it would be inaccurate so far. Maybe you can find some?
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by apercu on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @08:35AM (#38459137)
...and they will still try to find ways to use the data after you pay. Because the fines are rounding errors versus the profits.
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by sime2009 on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @10:29AM (#38460601)
https://gdpr.eu/fines/

For Facebook is would be either 2% of the firm’s worldwide annual revenue from the preceding financial year, or 4% of said revenue.

A bit bigger than a rounding error.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by Nextgrid on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @04:08PM (#38465348)
None of this has ever been applied, as proven by Facebook still being in business despite blatantly breaching the GDPR since 2018.

Even when they got close to actually getting a deterring fine, the corrupt Irish DPA bailed them out: https://noyb.eu/en/irish-data-protection-authority-gives-eu-...

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by apercu on Thursday November 30, 2023 @03:29PM (#38478634)
Fair, but for those 6 billion people that don't live in the EU....
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by throw_pm23 on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:26AM (#38459680)
Yes, the idea of payment is good, I would consider using FB if they would pay me a non-trivial amount for it.

Me paying for it, now, that's an interesting proposition.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by ecmascript on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:19AM (#38459594)
What you're writing is probably true but kind of irrelevant. They set whatever price they want and if you don't like it, don't use it.

Personally, I block all the ads and tracking, use a specific browser for whenever I browse facebook under a fake account so paying $10 a month is not worth it to me.

I maybe would pay if it was like $2 but at the same time I don't really use Meta products to actually pay for it. I agree that the price is ridiculously high but at the same time I can't blame them. At least they finally give users a choice, something I never thought would happen.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by izzydata on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:07AM (#38459469)
There is also the problem that you would pay them per month to not see ads and then they would still collect data on you and sell it. Where is this idea coming from that they are going to stop data collection just because you pay them to stop serving you ads?
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by gabeaweg on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:16AM (#38459562)
I have yet to see a compelling argument as to why they shouldn't be able to set whatever prices they want. They are a private company, they do not have a monopoly, and their service is anything but essential.
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by 3D30497420 on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @10:20AM (#38460463)
I'm not sure if this applies in this specific case (or if this is covered in the article), but one of the main concerns is that privacy basically becomes something only the rich can afford.

Of course, this sort of thing happens in basically every other aspect of our lives, but depending on how the law is written it may or may not be legal. For example, the rich can afford safer cars, but there are still minimum safety requirements. Presumably a car company could release a cheap car without seat belts, ABS brakes, etc. The market may like this, but it may not be allowed under the law.

A company may charge whatever they want for non-ad or non-tracking plans, but if they are priced out of the reach of most people, they may not be following intent of the law or how it is written.

Of course there's also the moral argument as well, but I'm guessing you were thinking more of the legal/economic side.

Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by jdietrich on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @10:33AM (#38460657)
Because the law says that consent is only valid if it is freely given and freely revocable. Privacy is a right, not a privilege. If Facebook's business model is dependent upon breaching the rights of their users, then the EU does not want their business.
Re:Meta sued by privacy group over pay up or click OK model by cma on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:28AM (#38459703)
The users that will pay are not the average user: they are worth more in online ads because they have more disposable income that they deploy online.