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Re:The Dead Children We Must See by gyudin on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:19PM (#38453627)
Egyptians men “standing tall” with the Palestinians probably feel proud for refusing to provide a temporal shelter for at least women and children. This situation literally wouldn’t be possible if just 1 side out of 3 wouldn’t behave like an asshole.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by amrocha on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:33PM (#38453767)
Why is it ok to kill men but not women and children
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by dyno12345 on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:08PM (#38454081)
it's not but there's an argument that it would reduce total suffering if you allow those who are obviously not potential combatants to leave the area, even though that's not fair to non-combatant men.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by gyudin on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @07:38PM (#38453820)
Why Hamas built so many bomb shelters and tunnels but literally 0 of them were used to protect the citizens? It’s literally the opposite of what any other government in the world would do.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by YZF on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:38PM (#38454331)
The Hamas cares nothing about "its" citizens. A Hamas spokesman said those are the responsibility of the UN. Many other governments in the world could care less about their citizens dying and some actively kill their citizens so not sure about "any other government in the world" either.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by euzi on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:43PM (#38454803)
Very few aids were allowed to enter Gaza until they negotiated for it as part of the truce deal.

It is absurd that we are blaming Hamas for not digging tunnels to accomodate 2 million people instead of blaming those who flattened dozens of residential blocks, and bombed schools and hospitals.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by meowtimemania on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @04:00AM (#38457147)
I think the point is that it shows that Hamas doesn't prioritize the life of its citizens. Israel is not right to bomb Gaza, just like Hamas wasn't right to massacre hundreds in Israel. Hamas likely did their actions knowing that Israel's response would be extreme.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by YZF on Thursday November 30, 2023 @02:21AM (#38470676)
We're blaming Hamas for everything and we're blaming Palestinians for electing and supporting Hamas. The story of the tunnels and the shelters is just one anecdote in the tragic events.

I'm pretty sure Israel did not bomb hospitals. Maybe schools. Flattened residential blocks certainly, after warning civilians to evacuate. Mosques were bombed.

Both schools and hospitals lose any protection they might enjoy under the Geneva convention if they're used for military purposes. Israel doesn't really benefit from bombing a school that isn't used in a fight against it, quite the opposite, Israel is losing support by doing that. At the same time Hamas gains an advantage by using these facilities because it grants him immunity. It's really not that complicated to understand.

Israel does benefit from flattening residential areas because it's taking out cover for Hamas. The rubble blocks tunnel entrances. Booby traps and mines will detonate. It's tactically removing an advantage from Hamas who would prefer to fight in the built up areas at close quarters. In war you don't want to get into symmetric fights, you want to use your overwhelming strengths to neutralize any advantage of the enemy. It's not like he's got a knife I'll bring a knife, it's more like he's got a knife, I'm gonna drop a bomb on the building he's in from an F-16 and then shell it with artillery and then have some tanks fire at him for good measure and then run him over with the tanks. There's also an element of deterrence (to the Palestinians but also to other actors) by inflicting a lot of damage.

In terms of the Hamas, martyrdom is a core value, so number of martyrs isn't a factor, especially if it's not the billionaire in Qatar being the martyr. "Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes,”. Hamas wins when more Palestinians are dead. The things "we" value in the "west" like well being, prosperity, peace, empathy, whatnot are not factors. We're talking about the same Hamas that recruited and sent hundreds of people into Israel to blow themselves up with random strangers in the early 2000's. They won't only not protect people, they'll get them to blow themselves up or engage in suicidal missions (which was one possible outcome of the Oct 7th attack, that a much larger portion of the attacking force would get killed and the damage inflicted would be much smaller).

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by megous on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:46PM (#38454387)
What spokesperson? When was it said? What was the context?

Given that Hamas is also a political and social organization, which at least once had broad support from Gazan citizens in free elections, I think stating that "Hamas cares nothing about "its" citizens." sounds suspect. Would citizens vote for organization that doesn't care about them at all?

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by YZF on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:23PM (#38454665)
Apparently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mousa_Abu_Marzook#2023_Israel-...

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/tunnels-built-to-prote...

Honestly your question shows great naivety. Even in the west people continuously vote for politicians that couldn't care less about them. In less developed countries let's just say it's much worse.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by megous on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:31PM (#38454274)
Is this some bizarre rhetorical question or did you actually spent any time thinking about how this would work practically as a defense for 2.5mil people against a state with access to unlimited amount of precisely targeted bunker buster bombs?

Want to know how well public air-raid bunkers work against advanced bombing technology? Check: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiriyah_shelter_bombing and that's 30 year old tech.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by YZF on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:59PM (#38454481)
Israel doesn't have an unlimited amount of bunker busters. I think a lot of the destruction is from more conventional precision munitions. The bunker busters are reserved for bunkers, deep tunnels, etc.

This question is one of the talking points of the Pro-Israel side. It's not that bizarre. But yeah, as talking points go, it's shallow/simplistic. The idea is to demonstrate that Hamas couldn't care less about Palestinian lives. They don't invest in any shape or form in protecting the citizenry or making the lives of Palestinians better. It's also meant to contrast with how Israel invests in protecting its population- lots of shelters for a much larger population, Israel has been building shelters in various forms forever. During most of the cold war Israel has been facing enemies with fairly unlimited resources as well, rockets, ballistic missiles, large air forces, even artillery (the north of Israel used to be regularly shelled by Syria way back). So it is actually possible to use shelters as a layer of defense.

Israel's more recent strategy of reinforced spaces in every house/apartment (started IIRC when Saddam Hussein decide to lob Scud missiles at Israel) has worked fairly well so that could be replicated in Gaza. Israeli buildings have taken direct hits by rockets from Lebanon and Gaza with pretty decent survival rates even when the building itself was practically demolished. Though that might require using the concrete for something else than tunnels. Oh no, another talking point.

The better strategy though is not to get into a situation where you're being attacked with bunker busters or try to separate civilian infrastructure from military infrastructure. Other ideas is that when you're warned about an area becoming a subject to aerial bombardments you move away. Sorry, more talking points.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by asylteltine on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:24PM (#38454213)
Interesting how the Arab countries surrounding Israel will do ANYTHING except accept Palestinian refugees. They have literally never accepted them in history, only expelled them like Jordan did in the 70s as a recent example. It’s almost like these Arab countries just hate Israel and don’t care about Palestine at all
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by megous on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:52PM (#38454433)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_diaspora

    Jordan 3,240,000
    Syria 630,000
    Lebanon 402,582
    Saudi Arabia 280,245
    Egypt 270,245
    Qatar 100,000
    Kuwait 80,000
    Iraq 57,000
    Yemen 55,000
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by YZF on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:02PM (#38454518)
I think most of these go way back to 1948 though. Do you have any statistics about how many Palestinians from the west bank and/or Gaza these countries have taken in over the last 10 years? Also do those countries give the Palestinians citizenship? I think other than Jordan the answer is no?
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by asylteltine on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:51AM (#38460023)
The answer is no, they don’t at all. They can’t even come in as refugees. All of this “pro palestine” stuff is a facade to openly hate Jews
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by euzi on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:37PM (#38454768)
"Interesting how the Arab countries do not want to help Israel forcibly displace Palestinians who choose to fight for their land and freedom."

Fixed it for you.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by asylteltine on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:52AM (#38460034)
You guys have the gold medal in mental gymnastics. You really said that?
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by eYrKEC2 on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @09:02PM (#38454515)
Why can't they live in Palestine?
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by will4274 on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @11:27PM (#38455573)
Assuming you're genuinely asking for the perspective behind this argument. I think these folks* mostly believe that cleansing is a "least bad" alternative because Palestine is a failed state with broad anti-Semitism and a Jewish neighboring state. No group in Palestine (even Hamas) is capable of enforcing a peace treaty, and Israel is not willing to abide by a peace treaty that Palestine groups do not abide by. Thus, the status quo of attacks from Palestine to Israel by various armed gangs will continue indefinitely, and the counter-cycle of Israeli retaliation, a counter-cycle which inevitable undermines Palestinian groups that deal with Israel. The most likely possible disruptions of this cycle are tragic - either the rise of a right wing group in Israel that cleanses Palestine or the regional hegemony of a current group in Iran that cleanses Israel - and even assuming one of these tragic disruptions doesn't occur, the status quo cycle is already pretty bad.

* I say "these folks" because I don't know that I agree.

Re:The Dead Children We Must See by asylteltine on Wednesday November 29, 2023 @09:53AM (#38460053)
They can, if they simply stop launching rockets aimed at civilians. Literally, that’s all that needs to happen. Rockets stop, bam two state solution next day.
Re:The Dead Children We Must See by megous on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @08:55PM (#38454458)
Lots of surrounding countries have experience with "temporary" shelters for people driven out by Israel from the lands Zionists invaded and purged. Why should they not be concerned now as ever?