News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by gmgmgmgmgm on Monday November 27, 2023 @10:54AM (#38433774)
That's disallowed on Wikipedia. There, you must reference some "source". That "source" doesn't need to be reliable or correct, it just needs to be some random website that's not the actual person. First sources are disallowed.
Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by bombela on Monday November 27, 2023 @11:07AM (#38433975)
I learned this when I tried correcting the wikipedia page on Docker. I literally wrote the first prototype. But this wasn't enough source for wikipedia. And to this day the English page is still not truthfull (interestingly enough, the french version is closer to the truth).
Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by nerdponx on Monday November 27, 2023 @11:32AM (#38434350)
You could publish a little webpage called "An historical note about the Docker prototype" under your own name, which you could then cite on Wikipedia.

I think it makes perfect sense as a general and strict policy for an encyclopedia. It would simply be too hard to audit every case to check if it's someone like you, or a crank.

Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by dTal on Monday November 27, 2023 @12:29PM (#38435203)
I don't see how requiring someone to set up a little webpage filters out cranks. If anything I might expect it to favor them.
Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by nerdponx on Monday November 27, 2023 @02:15PM (#38436823)
The idea is that it's a separate, distinct source, which exists outside of and independently from the encyclopedia itself, and can be archived, mirrored, etc. Its veracity and usefulness can then be debated or discussed as needed.
Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by bombela on Monday November 27, 2023 @02:06PM (#38436699)
Maybe I should write the story as a comment on hacker news, and link to it ;)

Joke aside, I should probably take up on your advice.

Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by a1369209993 on Monday November 27, 2023 @05:49PM (#38439623)
Yes. Do this (make sure it's not a top-level submission) and cite the HN comment specifically. Stupid rules deserve stupid compliance.
Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by nerdponx on Monday November 27, 2023 @06:07PM (#38439840)
Why would a top-level submission not be valid on Wikipedia?
Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by a1369209993 on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @06:13PM (#38452934)
It (presumably) would; the problem is that it could be considered more dignified and academically respectable than a random forum comment.
Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by andrewf on Monday November 27, 2023 @09:38PM (#38441613)
That may fall afoul of the "reputably published" requirement at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research...

Basically, Wikipedia wants a primary source's claims to be vetted by a third party, either a "reputable publisher" or a secondary source.

Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by nerdponx on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @12:16AM (#38442604)
Doesn't that disqualify just about any personal blog as a source, or any academic preprint (like on Arxiv)? I can't imagine that's widely enforced.
Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by 3836293648 on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @01:53AM (#38443145)
Well, stuff like the ArXiv is exactly what they don't want cited
Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by gmgmgmgmgm on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @02:22AM (#38443295)
you'd have to publish under another name. reference to the author's blog is also disallowed
Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by kibwen on Monday November 27, 2023 @11:04AM (#38433928)
And that's for good reason. Encyclopedias are supposed to be tertiary sources, not primary sources. Having an explicit cited reference makes it easier to judge the veracity of a statement compared to digging through the page history to figure out if a line was added by a person who happens to be an expert.
Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by JadeNB on Monday November 27, 2023 @12:42PM (#38435413)
> And that's for good reason. Encyclopedias are supposed to be tertiary sources, not primary sources. Having an explicit cited reference makes it easier to judge the veracity of a statement compared to digging through the page history to figure out if a line was added by a person who happens to be an expert.

But why is a reference to "[1] Blog post by XXX" (or, even worse, "[1] Blog post by YYY based on their tentative understanding of XXX") a more authoritative source than "[1] Added to Wikipedia personally by XXX"? Of course, Wikipedia potentially has no proof that the editor was actually XXX in the latter case; but they have even less proof that a blog post purporting to be by XXX actually is.

Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by kibwen on Monday November 27, 2023 @01:25PM (#38436068)
> Wikipedia potentially has no proof that the editor was actually XXX in the latter case; but they have even less proof that a blog post purporting to be by XXX actually is.

Wikipedia is not an authoritative identity layer, it provides no proof of identity and is thus strictly weaker than any other proof you can come up with. If you don't trust any arbitrary website that Wikipedia cites, then you have no more reason to trust any arbitrary Wikipedia editor.

As for what tertiary sources are and why they prefer not to cite primary sources in the first place, Wikipedia goes over this in their own guidelines: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_resear...

Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by JadeNB on Tuesday November 28, 2023 @05:39PM (#38452476)
> Wikipedia is not an authoritative identity layer, it provides no proof of identity and is thus strictly weaker than any other proof you can come up with. If you don't trust any arbitrary website that Wikipedia cites, then you have no more reason to trust any arbitrary Wikipedia editor.

It's the "strictly" with which I take issue. I certainly have no more reason to trust that a Wikipedia user whose username is BigImportantDude is actually a particular Big Important Dude than to trust the analogous fact about a blog post purporting to be authored by the Big Important Dude; but I dispute the fact that I should trust it less.

Re:How are zlib, gzip and zip related? by msla on Monday November 27, 2023 @12:39PM (#38435360)
And then there's impostors, which people who denigrate sourcing rules never seem to even think of.