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Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by kragen on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:23PM (#38372709)
keep in mind that the lead reporter on this, cade metz, is the one who wrote the character assassination piece on scott alexander repeatedly insinuating he was a neo-nazi (and de-anonymizing him, costing him his job due to some kind of weird psychiatrist ethical code)

so while probably nothing in here is literally false, it's quite likely calculated to give false impressions; read with caution

(well, it's literally false that "Greg Brockman (...) quit his role[] as (...) board chairman" but only slightly; that was the role he was fired from, as explained in the next paragraph of the article; that's not the kind of lies to watch out for)

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by db-interface on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:39PM (#38372884)
While I don't agree with all of the framing in the NYT story, it's worth noting that Scott Alexander was much friendlier to Moldbug et. al. than the anti-Metz camp argued at the time: https://twitter.com/ArsonAtDennys/status/1362153191102677001

I think Metz's motivation for that framing was his assumption that if SA was not at least sympathetic to NRx views, he would not allow them to be such a big voice in his comments and in his community. You can argue about the reasonableness of this assumption, but he did turn out to be right.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by Manuel_D on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:39PM (#38373464)
This is straightforward guilt-by-association: because of the mere fact that Scott interacted with people espousing neo reactionary views, he must also be sympathetic to those views. Of course, this is completed wrong and easily known by reading Scotts writings on the topic: https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-f...

There is zero way to say in good faith the Scott espouses or even agrees with neo reactionism.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by db-interface on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:56PM (#38373632)
I said he was "sympathetic to NRx views" and linked emails from him stating certain views widely held by Moldbug et. al. that he is sympathetic to. Do you disagree that "HBD" is an NRx view, or that the leaked emails express sympathy for it?
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by Manuel_D on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:53PM (#38374121)
Human biodiversity is an empirical fact. Are some populations taller than other, on average? Is red hair more prevalent in certain populations? Pretty much nobody actually rejects the idea of human biodiversity.

The neo reactionary types tend to draw specific conclusions from the idea of human biodiversity, like that racial disparities in IQ are inherent and not environmental. That's a conclusion I don't think is in line with Scott's views.

Furthermore, I suggest you read the linked emails in more detail. He likes the emphasis reactionaries put on social class, and dislikes ... pretty much everything else. He explicitly states that becoming a reactionary is stupid - I'm not sure how that's meant to be read as sympathetic.

This is another case where praising even a small component of a particular movement, even when paired with explicit condemnation of the movement as a whole, is taken as an endorsement.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by db-interface on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:14PM (#38374292)
> Human biodiversity is an empirical fact. Are some populations taller than other, on average? Is red hair more prevalent in certain populations? Pretty much nobody actually rejects the idea of human biodiversity.

> The neo reactionary types tend to draw specific conclusions from the idea of human biodiversity, like that racial disparities in IQ are inherent[...]

This is a classic motte-and-bailey. The IQ view is clearly the view that he is endorsing in the emails -- he is linking Steve Sailer's blog under "HBD is probably partially correct", and he even demands the recipient "NEVER TELL ANYONE I SAID THIS" -- obviously he's not talking about height.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by Manuel_D on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:21PM (#38374350)
Again, you're drawing very explicit conclusions from a few sentences. Racial disparities in IQ are indeed observed, but it's highly contentious over whether these are due to environmental factors like education and nutrition or inherent. That Asians have score higher IQs on average than whites in the US is an empirical observation. But it's also known that IQ can be increased by studying, and Asians study about twice as much as white people in childhood [1].

Scott is acknowledging that the taboo to even recognize these disparities is counterproductive: it stymied attempts to improve schooling or studying practices, because it's taboo to even recognize that there is a difference and instead people typically allege that the tests are biased. Would Scott argue that with identical environmental factors we'd still see the same disparities in IQ across ethnic groups? I don't think so, and nothing in the emails linked seem to suggest this.

1. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/analyzing-the-homework-ga...

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by db-interface on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:38PM (#38374469)
If your contention is that we should more frankly discuss IQ disparities, pretending we're talking about height was a strange way to go about it.

In those emails, SA does not say he thinks these questions deserve more study -- he says they're "probably partially true". Again, in that context he's talking about Steve Sailer's views.

Yes, I'm focusing on a few sentences. Do you think he wrote those by accident? That the words came out wrong and the straightforward reading was not his intent? In the context of the rest of his emails, and his writing on e.g. Albion's Seed, I do not think that is likely.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by Manuel_D on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:53PM (#38374564)
Albion's seed is pretty much entirely focused on culture, laws, and institutions, not genetics. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be related to human biodiversity at all.

And on a final note, I'd suggest you read the last paragraph of the screenshotted email chain, where Scott explains how it's valuable to read creationist arguments it forces him to sharpen his thinking.

> You never realize how LITTLE you know about evolution until you read some Behe and are like, "I know this correct... But why not?".

> Even if there turns out to be zero value in any a Reactionary has ever said, by challenging beliefs of mine that would otherwise never be challenged they have forced me to clarify my thinking and up my game.

I really think you've lost the forest for the trees here. Scott is praising certain parts of reactionary ideas for asserting things most people wouldn't argue, and those interactions are leading him to sharpen his thinking.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by sudosysgen on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:15PM (#38374301)
When Moldbug says HBD, he isn't saying "not all humans have exactly the same genes". HBD has a specific meaning in that context and the meaning is that some races are superior to others. That is specifically what Moldbug says when he talks about HBD, and SSC's author knows that well.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by Manuel_D on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:34PM (#38374442)
I don't doubt that Yarvin has racist views. I do take issue with people insisting that Scott agrees with Yarvin by mere virtue of association, despite the Scott's clear explicit refutations of neo reactionaries.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by sudosysgen on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @01:44PM (#38383329)
Scott's (partial) agreement with Yarvin is not from association, it's from him saying that he thinks HBD is at least partially correct, in a discussion with Yarvin where HBD means racial supremacy.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by kragen on Thursday November 23, 2023 @10:10AM (#38393537)
i've never seen yarvin mention hbd, so i think you may be misremembering this
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by reducesuffering on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:48PM (#38374073)
NRx views SSC as a useful blog to read in 2013-2017. Oh looks like you did too. Can't believe you're "sympathetic to NRx views."
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by db-interface on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:19PM (#38374330)
This is obtuse. I didn't make any argument about SA reading the same stuff NRx read, or even reading NRx stuff. I linked SA's own writing that "Many of their insights seem important" and that their views have "nuggets of absolute gold".
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by Manuel_D on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:26PM (#38374386)
"nuggets of gold" implies that the bulk of it is not gold. If reference someone, saying even a broken clock is right twice a day is that really an endorsement?
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by db-interface on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:46PM (#38374526)
As I mentioned in a sibling comment, the contention I intend to make is that he agrees more with the racial views of his NRx commenters than he publicly let on. That was the framing of the NYT article -- nobody thinks or would be incensed to learn that SA is a Neo-Monarchist or any of the other NRx beliefs that are orthogonal to modern US political discourse.

If you don't think racial IQ disparities are a significant part of NRx thought, fine, you're probably better positioned to know and I am happy to concede the point. In that case, a better comparison would be to Steve Sailor's views. I only mentioned NRx because that is the context of his emails, and I had not recognized that he was linking to Steve Sailor's blog.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by Manuel_D on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @11:05PM (#38374631)
No, I don't think he agrees with neo reactionaries any more than he let on. In his public posts he has praised reactionaries for making observations that most shirk away from, even if they are wrong in their conclusions. This is pretty much what is expressed in the contents of those emails.

I think you're reading way too much into one sentence saying human biodiversity is partially correct (which is not actually a particularly contentious idea when you explain what it is), and leaping to the conclusion he agrees with neo reactionary claims that some races have substantially lower IQ even with identical environmental factors. There's a vast disparity between "IQ disparities across races" and "IQ disparities across races, without environmental differences" that is crucial to understand.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by kragen on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @11:05PM (#38374628)
unfortunately i don't think neoreactionary views are at all orthogonal to the political discourse that is current in the usa; moldbug has his own variant of the 'cultural marxism' thesis, though naturally enough he doesn't blame it on the jews or the frankfurt school; instead, he picks the quakers, which i mostly agree with (except that of course i agree with the quakers)

his criticism is squarely directed at the mainstream us left that he grew up in and its core ideals, such as equality, human rights, pacifism, fighting injustice, etc. he thinks all those are bad things

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by kragen on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:32PM (#38374433)
it would be really surprising if a writer as prolific and literate as moldbug didn't occasionally produce nuggets of gold
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by kragen on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:57PM (#38373099)
alexander is the guy who wrote the 30,000 word anti-reactionary faq about why moldbug was wrong, though; those screenshots explain in detail why he was unsympathetic to their neoreactionary views, rather than demonstrating that he was sympathetic to them

he does say some things there that are entirely outside the pale and that he should have known better than, but sad to say, those particular beliefs aren't limited to neoreactionaries

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by db-interface on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:07PM (#38373202)
I don't mean to say that he was a closet NRx -- and IMO neither did Metz imply that -- just that he agreed with a much larger subset of their controversial views than he or his allies admitted publicly. I would consider that being "sympathetic" to NRx.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by kragen on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:19PM (#38373303)
i don't think the leaked screenshots support those conclusions; i don't have any idea where you're getting those conclusions from
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by db-interface on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:54PM (#38373615)
In them he says "HBD is probably partially correct" -- do you think that's not a NRx view (I agree others also hold it, but I would argue that it's a core view of NRx -- it doesn't need to be exclusive to them, e.g. Islam considers Jesus a prophet too), or that he publicly held that position previously?
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by red75prime on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:37PM (#38373978)
You can agree that people are different, and, simultaneously, don't agree that, say, the less useful ones should be stripped of some of their rights.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by db-interface on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:04PM (#38374226)
If you view some races as generally "less useful" than others, most people would consider that racist regardless of whether you think they should enjoy the same rights.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by red75prime on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:59PM (#38374598)
"Less useful" belongs to "don't agree" part, if you haven't noticed. It isn't an inherent part of the package.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by kragen on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:39PM (#38373989)
note that neoreaction is opposed wholesale to the idea of human rights
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by kragen on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:26PM (#38373864)
i'm not familiar with the varieties of neoreaction that consider it a core view, though apparently to my surprise they do exist

i think the vast majority of racists aren't neoreactionaries, though. like literally more than 99.9%

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by db-interface on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:40PM (#38374000)
I spent a lot of time on SSC from 2013 to 2017, and my recollection is that the Venn diagram of commenters promoting HBD and those promoting RDx was nearly a circle. And similarly for related sites like LW. So in that context I would say the two are closely related.

I find it hard to believe you've been exposed to much NRx content if you don't think they consider HBD true and very important. Although don't take that as a criticism -- I would not recommend wading through their beliefs and look back on it as a waste of my time.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by kragen on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:47PM (#38374068)
i read through most of moldbug's blog, and also knew his name and rhetorical style from crooked timber comments. possibly he was less racist than his followers? or just more circumspect about it. in any case, he attempted to justify his anti-liberal philosophy, at quite extreme length, but never on the basis of racism; so if racism was a core belief of his neoreactionary thought, it was apparently at a subconscious level

i remained unpersuaded in any case, steadfastly liberal

also, much to my surprise, he and i were both members of the first coworking space at spiral muse house in san francisco in 02006. but i didn't go very often, so i don't know if i ever met him; in any case that was before he revealed his identity

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by db-interface on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:09PM (#38374254)
I guess I am much less familiar with Moldbug's stated views than you, so I'm happy to concede that point.

Anyway, I think the HBD/NRx relationship is peripheral to the discussion of the Metz article -- I just framed it that way because that's the context of Scott's emails (certainly he think's they're at least associated!). The discourse around the Metz article was that it framed Scott as holding racist views, not specifically NRx views.

If I had mentioned Steve Sailer instead of NRx, would you agree that Scott was more sympathetic to those views than he publicly let on?

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by kragen on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:25PM (#38374380)
yes
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by sudosysgen on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:11PM (#38374268)
If you believe that differences in behaviours between groups of humans are significantly explained by genetic variation (which is supported by the evidence to some degree), and that those genetic variations align along racial lines (which really isn't), what do you think that entails on social outcomes between racial groups?
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by dekhn on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:28PM (#38372758)
wasn't that piece never published?
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by comp_throw7 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:30PM (#38372778)
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by dekhn on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:39PM (#38372878)
It's a pretty interesting article if you know how to read around the NYTimes's rhetoric.

"""The issue, it was clear to me, was that I told him I could not guarantee him the anonymity he’d been writing with. In fact, his real name was easy to find because people had shared it online for years and he had used it on a piece he’d written for a scientific journal. I did a Google search for Scott Alexander and one of the first results I saw in the auto-complete list was Scott Alexander Siskind."""

Reading the response, I don't think this is condeming Metz to live in infamy.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by comp_throw7 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:43PM (#38372930)
(I think this is a bit of a distraction from the main thread, but the main issue there was always de-anonymization in the other direction: that patients might Google "Scott Siskind" and find his blog, which might render it difficult to maintain the correct kind of relationship with him as their psychiatrist. He's careful to not accept any readers of his blog as patients.)
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by dekhn on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:45PM (#38372947)
Well, he signed up for exactly that outcome with full knowledge it could happen. Outing a psychiatrist's internet ramblings to his patients is not high on my list of journalistic crimes.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by comp_throw7 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:51PM (#38373025)
The same can be said for any other instance of deanonymization, and yet we do not thereby (by default) absolve everyone who deanonymizes someone else against their will. Was Scott perfectly careful? No. Was this something that harmed him in straightforward and predictable ways, and done against his wishes? Yes. Was there a trade-off that made it worth it? Not a question that Cade Metz has seen fit to answer publicly.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by dekhn on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:53PM (#38373069)
There's a whole section at the bottom of the published piece where Metz explains his motivations.

But yeah- we've deviated too far from the main topic, so let's just agree to agree.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by murakamiiq84 on Wednesday November 22, 2023 @05:49AM (#38377563)
I guess Metz would have a lot of sympathy for someone drawing the heat of the entire internet, and even powerful VCs, by doing something that many people think is destructive "on principle".
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by kragen on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:31PM (#38372795)
(-)
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by comp_throw7 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:33PM (#38372813)
My bad, edited.