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Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by notahacker on Monday November 20, 2023 @02:31PM (#38353204)
If it's Google Flights' pricing cache being out of date then that's not an airline dark pattern (Its also possible there is a website dark pattern designed to make an option to pay less by not choosing your seat really non-obvious: I've never booked with Delta)

The airline would say it's your fault for getting a quote from an aggregator rather than direct from them though

Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by hanzmanner on Monday November 20, 2023 @02:40PM (#38353359)
It's not. Delta shows me that there is 1 seat available at this price.

Here are the screenshots: https://imgur.com/a/X923fSo

Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by alwa on Monday November 20, 2023 @03:02PM (#38353737)
To be fair, you can still purchase the ticket at the advertised price without selecting a specific “preferred” seat. They’ll give you a seat assignment at checkin or at the gate (usually one of those “preferred” ones).

That said, the fact that this situation is unsurprising to me is itself probably evidence of the communication problem. Google could do a clearer job of qualifying the “free seat selection” they falsely promise for that fare, and Delta could do a much better job of saying “there are only paid seats left, but if you don’t want to buy one, you’ll still get one at the airport.” I feel like JetBlue used to do a good job with that.

Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by steveBK123 on Monday November 20, 2023 @03:13PM (#38353939)
I think in his case it's actually a legit website bug/issue. If you try to click through without choosing a seat it doesn't actually work on this particular sales funnel and pops up an error. My suspicion its something to do with it being a very close in flight (2 hours to takeoff). So you have selected a fare with seat selection included, but there are no seats actually left .. maybe some cache isn't updating at minute level frequency.
Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by pxx on Monday November 20, 2023 @03:14PM (#38353963)
You don't have to select a seat. Your screenshots (specifically the last one) indicate the product you want to buy is available at the price you want.
Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by hanzmanner on Monday November 20, 2023 @03:28PM (#38354177)
What product do you think I am buying? A promise that they might find a seat for me if I show up at the airport?

It puzzles me how many people at HN are so eager to defend dark patterns.

If you look at the screenshots with more attention:

1. Google tells me that the free seat selection is included

2. Delta tells me that if I agree to this price, I will be able to reserve the last available seat on the flight (for this price)

3. Once I confirm the price, Delta tells me that I can’t select the seat, it’s not available. I can still buy the ticket, but the offer has changed. Sure, since clearly I need to get on this flight (booking it last minute) - I would rather pay a bit more to make sure I do have a seat.

This is what dark patterns are all about. How is that so hard to understand?

Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by pxx on Monday November 20, 2023 @03:40PM (#38354355)
Because this isn't a dark pattern??? The alternative is you not being able to buy this product, which is much worse!

This fare comes with preselection over a limited set of seats. There are no more seats available for preselection in that set. If seats were available you would have been allowed to select them; otherwise, you will be assigned one at the gate.

It is very unlikely that you will be involuntarily denied boarding, and you can be denied boarding in the event of an oversale even if you have an assigned seat.

Note: your fare never indicates that you are buying a particular seat. Please read your contract of carriage closely. Maybe this part (not the offering of the ticket you're complaining about!) is a "dark pattern" (nobody reads the contract of carriage) but it's just literally how airline tickets have always worked.

Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by hanzmanner on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:03PM (#38354720)
Wow, ok. You think there is nothing wrong with the airline telling me that 1 seat is available on one screen and then telling me that there are no seats available unless I pay more on the next screen? (If I go back to the previous screen it still tells me that 1 seat is available.)

The alternative to this is that when I compare prices of different flights I see the correct full offer for the price I want to pay. This flight is not the only available flight. I would have chosen a different flight on Google Flights if I had known that there are no seats available at this price. But now I am 10 minutes into the process and just want to be done.

What is a dark pattern by your definition? A literal picture of a pattern colored dark gray?

Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by woobar on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:48PM (#38355376)
> airline telling me that 1 seat is available on one screen and then telling me that there are no seats available unless I pay more on the next screen?

This is a misunderstanding. Airline does not tell that you need to pay more. You can click on Continue button and complete the purchase. Even the popup you have shared tells you exactly this.

Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by hanzmanner on Monday November 20, 2023 @05:03PM (#38355553)
Yes, you are right. When you reserve a "table" at a restaurant you are actually not promised chairs. If you want to reserve chairs - that’s +$20. Don’t want to reserve chairs? Just show up at the restaurant and there might be chairs available.
Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by woobar on Monday November 20, 2023 @05:31PM (#38355845)
This is a great example. When you reserve a table at the restaurant they might offer you several seating options when they are not busy. But if they are full they will get you seated and not ask you for extra money. But you may end up next to the toilet.

Try reserving a specific table at the restaurant. An hour before the dinner.

Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by hanzmanner on Monday November 20, 2023 @06:14PM (#38356336)
That's not the point though. The point is that when you place a reservation, certain things are included. In the case of a restaurant, chairs are included. In the case of Delta, they explicitly state right under the agreed upon price that there is a seat available that I can reserve. It might be close to the restroom, sure. But they should not list this offer as inclusive of seat selection if there are no seats to select.

For some reason you fail to acknowledge that features listed under the price must be included in the price.

> Try reserving a specific table at the restaurant. An hour before the dinner.

Restaurants don't allow you to go through the reservation process to only suddenly mention at the last stage that the table has no chairs, or no table top (just table legs).

Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by kalleboo on Monday November 20, 2023 @09:52PM (#38358408)
> Restaurants don't allow you to go through the reservation process to only suddenly mention at the last stage that the table has no chairs, or no table top (just table legs).

Are you under the impression that they are going to make you stand up on the flight?

Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by woobar on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:39PM (#38355241)
There is no ambiguity there. You will get an economy seat or better. If non-premium seats available you will have an option to select one for free. If not, they will assign a premium economy or a comfort+ seat at the time of check-in. If the flight is overbooked having a preselected seat does not guarantee you won't be bumped.

This is something I've observed with different airlines. Google's line "Free seat selection" doesn't guarantee availability of seats to choose from, just that you won't be charged for selecting one if available for your fare.

Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by hanzmanner on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:55PM (#38355463)
Delta tells me that there is a seat available at this price before I agree to it. After I agree to it it tells me that there is no seat available at this price unless I pay more.

The agreed upon "seat" in this context includes the selection. This is what this specific dark pattern is about. They are misrepresenting the value of their offering. I want to be able to reserve a seat on my flight. Not to reserve a promise that they will assign a seat... if available, obviously. If not I can just book the next flight and wait for a couple of hours at the ariport. Perfect.

Re:Airlines will make record $118B in extra fees with websit... by steveBK123 on Monday November 20, 2023 @02:31PM (#38353220)
A low to negative economic Google product that is poorly supported, hard to imagine, right?