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Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by emptysongglass on Saturday November 18, 2023 @06:53PM (#38326331)
How are you still hireable? If I knew you orchestrated two coups at previous companies and I was responsible for hiring, you would be radioactive to me. Especially knowing that all that effort went into putting together a successful coup over other work.

Coups, in general, are the domain of the petty. One need only look at Ilya and D'Angelo to see this in action. D'Angelo neutered Quora by pushing out its co-founder, Charlie Cheever. If you're not happy with the way a company is doing business, your best action is to walk away.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by AlchemistCamp on Saturday November 18, 2023 @07:11PM (#38326572)
Max Levchin organized two coups while at PayPal. Both times, he believed it was necessary for the success of the company. Whether that was correct or not, they eventually succeeded and I don’t think the coups really hurt his later career.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by adastra22 on Saturday November 18, 2023 @09:41PM (#38328003)
PayPal had an exit, but it absolutely did not succeed in the financial revolution it was attempting. People forget now that OG PayPal was attempting the digital financial revolution that later would be bitcoin’s raison d'être.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by SoftTalker on Saturday November 18, 2023 @11:30PM (#38328979)
Yep. PayPal was originally a lot like venmo (conceptually -- of course we didn't have phone apps then). It was a way for people to send each other money online.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by Ar-Curunir on Sunday November 19, 2023 @12:07AM (#38329262)
Good thing for PayPal that it now owns Venmo :P
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by adastra22 on Sunday November 19, 2023 @01:30AM (#38329750)
PayPal went down the embrace, extend, extinguish route. If it were possible for them to do the same with bitcoin, they would have.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by wavewrangler on Sunday November 19, 2023 @02:39AM (#38330155)
I guess we are coming full circle now. Ven-who? C'mon, at least give me something catchy. Like, FriendSend. ShareFair. SettleUp. "Guys, I got it, I got it. "ven.....mo." aww, it's perfect! said one person ever, maybe. I'd even take venDuhhh, venDEEZ, venDrrr, venSure! But Venmo? Norway and hail! Do you remember venmo one asked who was in charge of naming the apps? Yes, that mem...wozMee. "They're not just any nuts, they're VenDEEZ nuts!" HhMmm, Deciduous!
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by AlchemistCamp on Sunday November 19, 2023 @06:57AM (#38331813)
I think getting to an IPO in any form during the wreckage of the Dotcom crash counts as an impressive success, even if their vision wasn't fully realized.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by wolverine876 on Sunday November 19, 2023 @12:43PM (#38335299)
Dismissing PayPal as anything but an overwhelming business success takes a lot of confidence. Unless you Gates or Zuckerburg, etc., I don't know how you have anything but praise for PayPal from that perspective.

Comparing PayPal's success in digital finance to cryptocurrency's is an admission against interest, as they say in the law.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by matisseverduyn on Saturday November 18, 2023 @09:54PM (#38328139)
This example seems to be survivorship bias. Personally, if someone approached me to suggest backstabbing someone else, I wouldn't trust that they wouldn't eventually backstab me as well. @bear141 said "People should oppose openly or leave." [1] and I agree completely. That said, don't take vacations! (when Elon Musk was ousted from PayPal in the parent example, etc.)

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38326443

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by jacquesm on Sunday November 19, 2023 @12:28AM (#38329399)
I had this exact thing happen a few weeks ago in a company that I have invested in. That didn't quite pan out in the way the would-be coup party likely intended. To put it mildly.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by chris_wot on Sunday November 19, 2023 @01:41AM (#38329815)
Dear god that sounds interesting and yet terrifying.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by jacquesm on Sunday November 19, 2023 @05:52AM (#38331413)
That's pretty accurate. It could have easily killed the company too.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by matisseverduyn on Sunday November 19, 2023 @01:57AM (#38329930)
You were approached to participate in a coup and therefore had it squashed? Or a CEO was almost removed during their vacation?
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by jacquesm on Sunday November 19, 2023 @05:51AM (#38331406)
The first. And it was a bit tricky because it wasn't initially evident that it was a coup attempt but they gave themselves away. Highly annoying.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by jstarfish on Sunday November 19, 2023 @02:35PM (#38336878)
> I wouldn't trust that they wouldn't eventually backstab me as well.

They absolutely would. The other thing you should take away from this is how they'd do it-- by manipulating proxies to do it with/for them, which makes it harder to see coming and impossible to defend against.

Whistleblowers are pariahs by necessity. You can't trust a known snitch won't narc on you if the opportunity presents itself. They do the right thing and make themselves untrustworthy in the process.

(This is IMO why cults start one way and devolve into child sex abuse so quickly-- MAD. You can't snitch on the leader when Polaroids of yourself exist...)

> don't take vacations!

This can get used against you either way, so you might as well take that vacation for mental health's sake.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by throwaway35i2 on Saturday November 18, 2023 @07:19PM (#38326665)
Are you the sort of person that hires someone that can successfully organize a coup against corporate leadership?

It feels like there is an impedance mismatch here.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by cdogl on Saturday November 18, 2023 @09:03PM (#38327606)
If I'm confident in my competence and the candidate has a trustworthy and compelling narrative about how they undermined incompetent leadership to achieve a higher goal - yep, for sure.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by Aloha on Saturday November 18, 2023 @09:28PM (#38327868)
Also, ones persons incompetent is anothers performer.

Like, being crosswise in organizational politics does not imply less of a devotion of organizational goals, but rather often simply different interpretation of those goals.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by brandall10 on Sunday November 19, 2023 @01:30AM (#38329749)
But being in a situation where this was called for twice?

That strikes me as someone who is either lacks the ability to do proper due diligence or they're straight up sociopaths looking for weak willed people they can strong arm out. Part of the latter is having the ability to create a compelling narrative for future marks, to put it bluntly.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by adastra22 on Saturday November 18, 2023 @09:50PM (#38328090)
I’ve hired people that were involved in palace coups at unicorn startups, twice. Justified or not, those coups set the company on a downward spiral it never recovered from.

I’m not sure I can identify exactly who is liable to start a coup, but I know for sure that I would never, ever hire someone who I felt confident might go down that route.

Startups die from suicide, not homicide.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by g42gregory on Sunday November 19, 2023 @02:01AM (#38329956)
"Startups die from suicide, not homicide." - That's a great way to put it. 100% true.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by Obscurity4340 on Monday November 20, 2023 @06:39AM (#38346604)
> I’ve hired people that were involved in palace coups at unicorn startups, twice...I know for sure that I would never, ever hire someone who I felt confident might go down that route.

So you hired coupers but you would never hire coupers? Could you clarify this, seems contradictory...

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by coldacid on Monday November 20, 2023 @11:11AM (#38349899)
>So you hired coupers but you would never hire...coupers? Did you not know about their coups cuz that's the only way I can see that makes sense here. Could you clarify this, seems contradictory...

You might have missed this from GP's comment:

>>I’m not sure I can identify exactly who is liable to start a coup

In other words, at least once these people have pulled the wool over their eyes during the hiring process.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by Obscurity4340 on Monday November 20, 2023 @11:56AM (#38350453)
Thats what I thought ;)
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by adastra22 on Monday November 20, 2023 @04:55PM (#38355470)
These people were early hires at a company I co-founded (but was not in an official leadership role at). They had never pulled a coup before, but they would do so within two years of being hired. The coup didn’t affect me directly, and indeed happened when I was out of the country and was presented as a fait accompli. But nevertheless I left not long thereafter as the company had already begun its downward slide.

The point in my comment was this: in retrospect, I’m not sure there’s anything that would have tipped me off to that behavior at the time of interview. But if this was something I could somehow identify, it would absolute be my #1 red flag for future hires.

Edit: The “twice” part might have made my comment ambiguous. What I meant was after I hired them, these people went on to pull two separate, successive coups, which indicates to me the first time wasn’t an aberration.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by Obscurity4340 on Monday November 20, 2023 @05:29PM (#38355820)
'S all good
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by Obscurity4340 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @02:16AM (#38360422)
You should have made them fake manager like Michael Scott appointed Dwigt Schrute
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by bear141 on Saturday November 18, 2023 @07:00PM (#38326443)
I agree completely. Reading Hal3000 comment completed disgusted me. It’s appalling to know there are people out there like this and worst of all they are proud of their little snake behavior.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by andybak on Saturday November 18, 2023 @08:18PM (#38327210)
Aren't you taking sides in a fight without knowing which side was "right"? Or do you believe that loyalty trumps all other values?

At this point I'm in danger of triggering Godwin's Law so I had better stop.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by bear141 on Saturday November 18, 2023 @08:50PM (#38327470)
My comment was phrased inappropriately.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by oska on Saturday November 18, 2023 @08:34PM (#38327329)
As you are new here, I would urge you to read the site's Guidelines [1], which the tone & wording of your comment indicate you have not read.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by bear141 on Saturday November 18, 2023 @08:41PM (#38327389)
Ok. Thank you.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by ekianjo on Saturday November 18, 2023 @08:40PM (#38327372)
The regular HN commenter says "ceos are bad useless and get paid too much" but now when someone suggests getting rid of one of them suddenly its the end of the world
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by jonny_eh on Sunday November 19, 2023 @03:25AM (#38330446)
1. There's different people here with different opions.

2. CEO's at fast growing startups are very different than at large tech.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by Aloha on Saturday November 18, 2023 @09:26PM (#38327855)
Why is there a presumption that it must take precedence over other work?

I've run or defended against 'grassroots organizations transformations' (aka, a coup) at several non-profit organizations, and all of us continued to do our daily required tasks while the politicking was going on.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by emptysongglass on Sunday November 19, 2023 @04:35AM (#38330894)
Because any defense of being able to orchestrate a professional coup and do your other work with the same zeal and focus as you did before fomenting rebellion I take as seriously as people who tell me they can multitask effectively.

It's just not possible. We're limited in how much energy we can bring to daily work, that's a fact. If your brain is occupied both with dreams of king-making and your regular duties at the job, your mental bandwidth is compromised.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by rand846633 on Saturday November 18, 2023 @11:20PM (#38328905)
> If you're not happy with the way a company is doing business, your best action is to walk away.

This makes no sense at all!

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by gmassman on Sunday November 19, 2023 @01:25AM (#38329731)
It makes the most sense if you value your own wellbeing over whatever “mission” a company is supposedly chasing.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by chris_wot on Sunday November 19, 2023 @01:39AM (#38329807)
Are you responsible for hiring though?
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by digi59404 on Sunday November 19, 2023 @08:35AM (#38332512)
Let me pose a theoretical. Let’s say you’re a VP or Senior Director. One of your sibling directors or VPs is over a department and field you have intimate domain knowledge. Meaning you have a successful track record in that field both from a management side and an IC side.

Now, that sibling director allows a culture of sexual harassment, law breaking, and toxic throat slitting behavior. HR and the Organizations leadership is aware of this. However the company is profitable, outside his department happy, and stable. They don’t want to rock the boat.

Is it still “the domain of the petty” to have a plan to replace them? To have formed relationships to work around them, and keep them in check? To have enacted policies outside their department to ensure the damage doesn’t spread?

And most importantly to enact said replacement plan when they fuck up just enough leadership gives them the side-eye, and you push the issue with your documentation of their various grievances?

Because that… is a coup. That is a coup that is atleast in my mind moral and just, leading to the betterment of the company.

“Your best action is to walk away” - Good leadership doesn’t just walk away and let the company and employees fail. Not when there’s still the ability to effect positive change and fix the problems. Captains always evacuate all passengers before they leave the ship. Else they go down with it.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by wolverine876 on Sunday November 19, 2023 @12:37PM (#38335190)
> “Your best action is to walk away” - Good leadership doesn’t just walk away and let the company and employees fail.

Yes, exactly. In fact, it's corruption of leadership.

If an engineer came to the leader about a critical technical problem and said, 'our best choice is to pretend it's not there', the leader would demand more of the engineer. At a place like OpenAI, they might remind the engineer that they are the world's top engineers at arguably the most cutting edge software organization in the world, and they are expected to deliver solutions to the hardest problems. Throwing your hands up and ignoring the problem is just not acceptable.

Leaders need to demand the same of themselves, and one of their jobs is to solve the leadership problems that are just as difficult as those engineering problems - to deliver leadership results to the organization just like the engineer delivers engineering results, no excuses, no doubts. Many top-level leaders don't have anyone demanding performance of them, and don't hold themselves to the same standards in their job - leadership, management - as they hold their employees.

> Not when there’s still the ability to effect positive change and fix the problems.

Even there, I think you are going to easy on them. Only in hindsight do you maybe say, 'I don't see what could have been done.' At the moment, you say 'I don't see it yet, so I have to keep looking and innovating and finding a way'.

Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by netaustin on Sunday November 19, 2023 @11:06AM (#38333897)
I feel like in the parent comment coup is sort of shorthand for the painful but necessary work of building consensus that it is time for new leadership. Necessary is in the eye of the beholder. These certainly can be petty when they are bald-faced power grabs, but they equally can be noble if the leader is a despot or a criminal. I would also not call Sam Altman's ouster a coup even if the board were manipulated into ousting him, he was removed by exactly the people who are allowed to remove him. Coups are necessarily extrajudicial.
Re:Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam... by startupsfail on Sunday November 19, 2023 @11:56AM (#38334582)
It also looks like Sam Altman was busy creating another AI company, along his creepy WorldCoin venture, wasteful crypto/bitcoin support and no less creepy stories of abuse coming from his younger sister.

Work or transfer of intellectual property or good name into another venture, while not disclosing it with OpenAI is a clear breach of contract.

He is clearly instrumental in attracting investors, talent, partners and commercialization of technology developed by Google Brain and pushed further by Hinton students and the team of OpenAI. But he was just present in the room where the veil of ignorance was pushed forward. He is replaceable and another leader, less creepy and with fewer conflicts of interest may do a better job.

It it no surprise that OpenAI board had attempted to eject him. I hope that this attempt will be a success.