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Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by fnordpiglet on Saturday November 18, 2023 @01:51PM (#38323007)
I think this will ultimately be good for everyone, however I can imagine there’s a huge populace of OpenAI employees hoping this was a get rich quick route and are rethinking that. I know OpenAI has a different structure for reward than typical equity, but there had to be the thought this was going to be bigger than Apple and Google combined and there would be legions of billionaires in the making. If I were one of them, I would be seriously thinking about how to value my future at OpenAI.
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by rbera on Saturday November 18, 2023 @02:01PM (#38323091)
Good. Considering they’re already getting millions in comp, I’d rather have people working on AGI that aren’t in it solely for the money. And it’s not like Cohere or Sam’s next company won’t be trying to poach researchers anyway, but at least one company (OpenAI) isn’t going for profit for sure now.
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by zeven7 on Saturday November 18, 2023 @02:05PM (#38323131)
And now Sam is free to start another company which is incentivized by profit, giving him the ability to easily gobble up the part of the talent at OpenAI that was hoping for that.
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by p_j_w on Saturday November 18, 2023 @07:17PM (#38326645)
Why do so many people buy into this belief that Sam Altman was the special sauce in OpenAI?
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by cmcaleer on Saturday November 18, 2023 @07:20PM (#38326684)
Is there a compelling narrative to think that he wasn’t useful?
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by fnordpiglet on Sunday November 19, 2023 @01:11PM (#38335703)
His title: CEO
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by zeven7 on Saturday November 18, 2023 @09:56PM (#38328157)
He’s not the only one. But at least 4 top people have already left because of him leaving. He can clearly take people with him. That’s the comment you’re responding to. His power isn’t him alone. It’s everyone he brings with him.
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by cmcaleer on Saturday November 18, 2023 @07:19PM (#38326672)
Or he gets to return to OpenAI and have a Steve Jobs style cull of the board. Either way as someone who enjoys the drama I’m stoked.
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by zeven7 on Saturday November 18, 2023 @09:10PM (#38327679)
He’s not the only one. But at least 4 top people have already left because of him leaving. He can clearly take people with him. That’s the comment you’re responding to. His power isn’t him alone. It’s everyone he brings with him.
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by ChildOfChaos on Saturday November 18, 2023 @02:11PM (#38323198)
Really? I'd be way more inclined to be pessimistic about it.

OpenAI is massively ahead of anyone else in the AI space, anything that shows problems in the organisation seems like it could set us back massively in the development of AI.

Several key people at OpenAI have also resigned, including Greg Brockman who was removed from the board but told he was too important so would remain in his other roles, he also tweeted not to worry bigger things are coming.

If Sam breaks away and does something else in this space, I can see others joining him and although competition is deathly, I feel like it is just going to fracture our AI developments, everyone is trying to catch up with OpenAI, any new company would be starting from scratch and be years away from anything useful while also leaving OpenAI a shell of it's former self.

Hopefully not the start of bigger issues at openAI.

Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by fnordpiglet on Sunday November 19, 2023 @01:14PM (#38335741)
A flip side, AI development fragmentation will mean many more techniques are tried and know how diffuses into a much broader market. This has the likelihood of greatly accelerating everything. Further, by lopping off the top of OpenAI you create space for new people to grow and learn and lead.

In the very short term it’s disruptive. In the medium and long term it’s probably a wonderful thing to soften the ground a bit and let competition take hold.

Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by shinryuu on Saturday November 18, 2023 @01:59PM (#38323071)
I'm sure they are pretty well paid either way. It's not like they would easily be able to go to another company and get better paid?
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by almost_usual on Saturday November 18, 2023 @02:02PM (#38323104)
Brought this up in another thread and was downvoted. But yes the 900k compensation package was probably more than 600k PPU equity which is worth who knows what now.

https://www.levels.fyi/blog/openai-compensation.html

Only a few days ago there was a post here about them poaching researchers with “10M” equity compensation packages..

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38258406

Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by lumost on Saturday November 18, 2023 @02:18PM (#38323273)
This could yield a lawsuit at some point if those PPUs are worthless due to the board refusing to allow profits…
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by almost_usual on Saturday November 18, 2023 @02:19PM (#38323285)
Right, PPUs are worthless until profitability but the board doesn’t want to be profitable?
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by lumost on Saturday November 18, 2023 @03:10PM (#38323832)
I don’t believe offering PPUs as compensation when you intend never to be profitable is entirely legal
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by dragonwriter on Saturday November 18, 2023 @04:49PM (#38324907)
For a salaried position where the base salary is above the legal minimum salary for wage & hour exemption, I don't see what the legal problem would be.
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by peyton on Saturday November 18, 2023 @05:03PM (#38325049)
Tortious interference? It’s pretty textbook right?
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by dragonwriter on Saturday November 18, 2023 @05:28PM (#38325319)
> Tortious interference?

How?

> It’s pretty textbook right?

No? Offering a compensation package can't be tortious interference, tortious interference requires an existing contract, and action by a third party that (along with a whole bunch of other conditions) causes a breach of that contract.

Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by peyton on Saturday November 18, 2023 @06:30PM (#38326055)
Well, you have to specify a jurisdiction. Let’s go with California since that’s where a lot of OpenAI’s employees are. Here’s what you need:

1. an economic relationship existed between the plaintiff and a third party which contained a reasonably probable future economic benefit or advantage to plaintiff;

2. the defendant knew of the existence of the relationship and was aware or should have been aware that if it did not act with due care its actions would interfere with this relationship and cause plaintiff to lose in whole or in part the probable future economic benefit or advantage of the relationship;

3. the defendant was negligent;

4. and such negligence caused damage to plaintiff in that the relationship was actually interfered with or disrupted and plaintiff lost in whole or in part the economic benefits or advantage reasonably expected from the relationship

It’s pretty open and shut, no?

Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by dragonwriter on Saturday November 18, 2023 @07:41PM (#38326881)
Yes, its open and shut that offering a compensation package doesn't mean that, starting with #1.

And you can't make that case with the later decision by the nonprofit board (even if one assumes that an entity that has complete control of a party can even count as a "third party" for tortious interference rather than just being a source of breach of contract if it actually induces a breach), because the OpenAI Global LLC operating agreement expressly sets this out as normal, so there is no reasonable expected benefit of the relationship that is being interfered with.

If OpenAI Global LLC offered its employees the PIU/PPU as compensation but did not disclose (or, a fortiori, actively concealed), you could make a case for fairly simple fraud. But tortious interference is just not a tort that works here.

Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by peyton on Saturday November 18, 2023 @08:45PM (#38327425)
I don’t follow. You’re saying PPUs granted by the for-profit don’t carry a reasonably expected benefit? And that a parent can’t tortuously interfere with a subsidiary? Both are factually untrue. I don’t see the wiggle room here that you do.
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by dragonwriter on Saturday November 18, 2023 @09:01PM (#38327578)
> I don’t follow. You’re saying PPUs granted by the for-profit don’t carry a reasonably expected benefit?

Yes, a profit sharing claim in an LLC whose operating agreement explicitly says it will be operated for the charitable purpose of a controlling nonprofit and that profit will not be its guiding principle does not create a reasonable expectation that it will be managed for profit.

Either the employees have that information disclosed, and there is no expectation, or it is concealed by the subsidiary employing them, in which case there might be a reasonable expectation, but its due to fraud by the subsidiary, not interference by the parent.

Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by peyton on Saturday November 18, 2023 @11:52PM (#38329139)
It doesn’t sound like either of us have all the facts. We’ll leave it at that.
Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by dragonwriter on Saturday November 18, 2023 @03:12PM (#38323859)
> This could yield a lawsuit at some point if those PPUs are worthless due to the board refusing to allow profits…

A lawsuit based on what? The OpenAI Global LLC operating agreement has a prominent notice...

https://images.openai.com/blob/142770fb-3df2-45d9-9ee3-7aa06...

from https://openai.com/our-structure

Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by almost_usual on Saturday November 18, 2023 @04:07PM (#38324441)
OpenAI recruits employees based on equity packages that will not amount to anything based on their operating agreement.

Live and learn I guess.

Re:No "malfeasance" behind Sam Altman's firing, OpenAI memo ... by realce on Saturday November 18, 2023 @02:03PM (#38323115)
I hear Cyberdyne is hiring if that's your attitude about creating AGI.