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Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by wslh on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @05:24AM (#38261470)
Since major of startups fail, isn't it a good idea for a startup to commit to this at the beginning? Even privately to not disalign the success goal. If they don't commit to this it is zillion times worst than technical debt.
Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by Fnoord on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @05:44AM (#38261614)
Colin Percival's Tarsnap famously has such mechanic (though not a startup). It ensures you wouldn't fall into some kind of bus problem. However, it creates an incentive where the general public has an incentive to see the product fail. I word it like that because from my PoV the general public has a net benefit from F(L)OSS. I suppose that is why people prefer to keep such secret.

But hopefully not before it is too late. We should all think about situations where we are no longer around. Like having your keys/passwords at a notary.

Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by thfuran on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @07:03AM (#38262245)
>I word it like that because from my PoV the general public has a net benefit from F(L)OSS.

I'm not so sure about that. An actively developed/supported project is often more useful than an abandoned open source one.

Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by kawhah on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @08:23AM (#38262978)
If you're prepared to pay market rate for someone to maintain something you should always be able to find someone willing to accept market rate (by definition). This separates the cost of maintenance from costs flowing from rent-seeking behavior.

Arguably industry is always willing to pay, in aggregate, the cost for free software to be maintained, but is not willing to pay, despite the optimism of those who sell it, for the marginal utility it gives them per-customer (which should be much higher). When asked to do so they will simply support free-as-in-beer or cheaper alternatives until one of those becomes the dominant player. This is why successful and heavily commercialized free software projects often seem to be only just clinging on to profitability (eg Docker).

Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by thfuran on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @08:40AM (#38263153)
>If you're prepared to pay market rate for someone to maintain something you should always be able to find someone willing to accept market rate (by definition).

Are you saying that if you can pay someone to develop their proprietary code for a price you can necessarily find someone to accept the same amount of money for the same work but open sourced? That doesn't seem true. Those are not equivalent offers.

Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by sebastiennight on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @08:54AM (#38263296)
Your comment sounds like you think open-source work would be _more_ expensive than closed-source work, or did I misunderstand? That would seem surprising to me.

I would assume some people (clearly a minority) would be willing to take a small pay cut when working on FLOSS.

E.G. could someone be paid slightly less at GitLab versus the same role at GitHub, if they believe in GitLab's principles

Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by thfuran on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @08:58AM (#38263337)
There are people who value open source and there are people who value assets. The point is that there isn't a single market rate for the two offers since they aren't the same thing.
Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by kawhah on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @09:03AM (#38263384)
No, I am saying that if a project is open sourced, and there is sufficient demand from people willing to pay for support, maintenance, etc, someone will come along to meet that demand.

If there isn't then the original commercial company was obviously never viable either.

Since an entity getting payment for maintenance can neither expect to collect a monopoly rent for the code, nor is required to pay one to anyone else, the cost of maintenance becomes the market price.

Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by smeyer on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @09:46AM (#38263881)
I think your view is too strongly assuming that everyone in the market is perfectly rational and perfectly replaceable with zero transaction costs..

Especially when you start talking about a single person company, it could be as simple as the founder being sentimentally attached to the company and continuing it despite making less than they could with other opportunities, but that doesn't mean that if the founder gets hit by a bus someone else will also be willing to take a sub-optimal gig. Or a company might currently be barely worth running with $20k a month in revenue, but if there is a period of turmoil and lost customers in the process of open-sourcing/founder getting hit by a bus/whatever that now the customer base would only bring in $10k a month, it's no longer profitable, and the market fails to find someone to run the company.

Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by schnable on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @11:37AM (#38265624)
If the code is open sourced, there doesn't need to be a dedicated company behind supporting it. Assuming a compatible license, any party that wants to use can fork it and pay people to maintain it for their own needs without advertising that they "support" the code.
Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by SoftTalker on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @12:23PM (#38266344)
But just because something is open source doesn't mean it's easily maintainable by anyone. It's one thing to install and run it somewhere, but if it needs fixes or customization it quickly becomes necessary to learn and understand the architecture and organization of the code, the data models and structures, etc. and if it was previously the product of a "one man shop" then you're going to have to pay someone to do that learning.
Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by rglullis on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @11:10AM (#38265124)
Some products are viable as opensource projects but not as a commercial venture, and the overhead of a business entity might be enough to get out of viability.
Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by e12e on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @08:59AM (#38263350)
> However, it creates an incentive where the general public has an incentive to see the product fail.

Maybe Colin should make tarsnap free for bus drivers? ;)

Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by toyg on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @12:38PM (#38266597)
> However, it creates an incentive where the general public has an incentive to see the product fail

That's not really the problem. The problem is that it lowers the company value: why should I, potential acquirer, shell out $$$ to get your IP, when I can just sit down and wait for it to come down the river?

Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by concordDance on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @12:52PM (#38266824)
Most of the value of a company is in the people, structure and brand.

And there's no guarantee the other acquirers will cooperate. "Why should I wait for the company to collapse and open source it's stuff forcing me to compete with other acquirers when I can buy them now and get a monopoly?"

Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by actionablefiber on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:29PM (#38269270)
Presumably if the technology is good, there is some competitive advantage in retaining sole control over it, or licensing it out.
Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by abirch on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:54PM (#38270359)
This seems to make the company more valuable toward the end of life. If you don't buy out your competitor, your customers will have an Open Source alternative.
Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by narinxas on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @09:05AM (#38263414)
it depends, many startups whole purpose for getting founded is getting acquihired, if this the case, then clearly the answer is no
Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by dyeje on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @10:41AM (#38264630)
It’s a lot of work to set something up for being a sustainable, usable OSS project. It certainly doesn’t make sense to invest time in it upfront when your goal is to sell access to it. Afterwards, founders have usually poured everything they have into trying to make the business survive and the work is just unappealing.
Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by bdcravens on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:27PM (#38268277)
Perhaps, but many startups do leverage paid products and components, leaving the open-source product nonfunctional (without a user paying those same licenses). To suggest that the company has an obligation to only use OSS is not reasonable.
Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by jojobas on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @05:09PM (#38270534)
What's the incentive? Startups are created to earn founders money, at least in the form of wages off funding or ideally when acquired/listed. Pledging to open source doesn't work towards that goal.
Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by remram on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @05:45PM (#38270896)
A commitment is probably not worth much when the entity who committed literally doesn't exist anymore.
Re:Placemark is going open source and shutting down by Aurornis on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @05:57PM (#38271032)
> isn't it a good idea for a startup to commit to this at the beginning?

The source code is part of a startup’s IP. When a startup fails the IP goes to the investors and debtors who can try to recoup some of their investment by selling the IP.

By the time a company fails, the source code isn’t really theirs to give away any more. They have to hand it over to investors. It’s the same reason a failing startup can’t just give away all of their office furniture or other assets.

Even if we ignore that, releasing source code doesn’t actually do anything for most customers of a SaaS platform. They were paying for the service, not the source code. The source code wasn’t designed for individual use, so self-hosting isn’t going to make sense. Maybe some other group would try to run a company around it, but if the first company failed to become sustainable with the source code it’s less likely that a second company would.