News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by torginus on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:43AM (#38215844)
No it's not. A ton of programs used by regular people (Chrome etc.) are RAM hogs, if you are a dev, then Docker is also an egregious example. If you happen to play games (a big thing for average people), that 8GB will be shared between the CPU and the GPU. Even the Steam Deck, admittedly a budget device, comes with 16GB.

It's often mentioned that macOS is more frugal with RAM, a claim which I flat out found to be untrue. I regularly saw Dock and Finder leak and eat gigabytes of RAM each.

The unfortunate reality is that base Mac models always existed as an upsell. There were a few precious historical exceptions, most recently the M1 Mac, but that doesn't change this rule.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by aurareturn on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:46AM (#38215866)
>No it's not. A ton of programs used by regular people (Chrome etc.) are RAM hogs, if you are a dev, then Docker is also an egregious example. If you happen to play games (a big thing for average people), that 8GB will be shared between the CPU and the GPU. Even the Steam Deck, admittedly a budget device, comes with 16GB.

That's why I said normal office workers and students. I never said 8GB is enough for devs. It wasn't enough for me. It was still manageable for that 1 year before Apple Silicon MBPs got released. But of course I upgraded to an M1 Pro 16GB as soon as it came out.

I just gifted a family member an M1 Air 8GB in late 2023. I felt very comfortable that it was enough for the work this person does on the computer.

PS. 8GB is perfectly fine for Chrome web browsing. You can have 50 tabs open and it'll still run smoothly. macOS does some magic with paging. Don't know how it does it. But never had an issue with 8GB and Chrome. It was always my IDE, Typescript, and docker that gave me RAM issues on 8GB.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by lpapez on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:59AM (#38215953)
> That's why I said normal office workers and students.

Costing 9 hundos a piece, Air is not something a regular company would buy for their employees.

They're more likely to buy a budget laptop in the 400-500 range which you can bet will do just fine for office work, and you can always upgrade it if necessary.

If a company really does need their employees to work a Mac, they will have to cough out a lot more for the 16GB version, and this is what the article calls corporate greed.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by aurareturn on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:02AM (#38215972)
When I was in college, I interned as IT support at a large corporation. We were buying $1200 Lenovos for normal office workers and $2000 laptop workstations for the design engineers. You'd be surprised at how much money enterprises spend on each laptop.

I happen to think that the enterprise is an untapped market for Macs. Not tech offices. Other industries that run on Lenovos and Dells.

If I'm a small business, I still wouldn't buy $500 Windows laptops for my employees. I'd buy $750 M1 Airs. They last longer, "just work", and have fewer support issues.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by hindsightbias on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:19AM (#38219904)
IBM went to macs 8 years ago.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by mrguyorama on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:02PM (#38224489)
> I'd buy $750 M1 Airs. They last longer, "just work", and have fewer support issues.

As an employee of a company that runs macbook fleets, hell no they don't. Every other year we have had to replace half our inventory because of the 2015 macbooks having faulty batteries that want to explode, and then the next generations being that terrible keyboard, where every single employee needed their entire top cover replaced at least once because the keyboard didn't even last a year.

Meanwhile at my previous company which ran those boring ugly dell "workstation" laptops with the fat ass batteries, Entire generations of older workstations were still in inventory because they just didn't die, and were stupidly easy to repair, and you didn't have to send them away for a month for something like "my N key doesn't work anymore" or "the battery we gave you will burn your house down"

I just don't get how people say "Macs are reliable", because the only laptops less reliable than my work macbooks have been a series of cost reduced dell laptops that screws would literally fall out of, except even when that happened, dell would send someone to come fix it the next day, in your home!

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by Our_Benefactors on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:32PM (#38224832)
Nobody considers the final-gen intel MBPs with touchbar and stupid-ass keyboard to be reliable. M-series machines however, I have not heard of any issues with those aside from flaky MagSafe connectors.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by goosedragons on Saturday November 11, 2023 @06:07AM (#38229243)
Haven't heard the reports of spontaneous screen cracking? [0]

[0] https://www.makeuseof.com/m1-macbook-screens-cracking/

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by TexanFeller on Saturday November 11, 2023 @07:58AM (#38229925)
It's widely known that accessories like stick on camera covers can damage the screens of the new macbooks because they're designed with almost zero gap when shut. I work among a sea of macbooks and follow the macbook world rather closely and have never once heard of any common screen issue on the apple silicon models that didn't amount to someone having stuck something between the screen and the case when closing it.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by goosedragons on Saturday November 11, 2023 @08:30AM (#38230137)
There's loads of threads on Apple's own site, reddit, etc. of it happening. Some users have claimed it happened while the laptop was OPEN.

But hey, it's not like Apple has a history of denying problems, right?

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by musicale on Saturday November 11, 2023 @09:16PM (#38236612)
Apple has definitely had screen cracking issues in the past, and I believe it has been a covered repair/replacement.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by Our_Benefactors on Saturday November 11, 2023 @11:29AM (#38231693)
Nope, first I’ve heard of it. Nor do I believe the person “it was just sitting there, it cracked just by looking at it funny!” Uh huh. Sure buddy.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by musicale on Saturday November 11, 2023 @09:16PM (#38236609)
> 2015 macbooks having faulty batteries that want to explode, and then the next generations being that terrible keyboard, where every single employee needed their entire top cover replaced at least once because the keyboard didn't even last a year.

IIRC there was a recall/replacement program for those batteries as well as earlier generations of the butterfly keyboard. I'm not a fan of the butterfly keyboard, but Apple did replace it twice for free. The final revision fixed the reliability problems for me at least.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by stephenr on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:12AM (#38216042)
> They're more likely to buy a budget laptop in the 400-500 range

I'd imagine the TCO on those bargain basement laptops is terrible, so I doubt they're really a big sell for corporate buyers.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by benterix on Friday November 10, 2023 @07:23AM (#38218006)
Not necessarily - it depends how easily you can upgrade off-the shelf NVMs and RAM, and how much RAM its motherboard supports.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by stephenr on Friday November 10, 2023 @08:50AM (#38218760)
(A) the actual purchase cost for memory, whether its $200 or $20 is essentially irrelevant when it comes to TCO.

(B) In my experience corporate machines simply aren't upgraded. You get enough for the job when you order it. If you need more, you get a new machine and the old one is repurposed or retired if it's remaining usable life is short.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by ghaff on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:16AM (#38219869)
>In my experience corporate machines simply aren't upgraded.

Yeah. It would basically be insane for a company for nickel and dime laptop purchases and then pay an IT person to do bespoke upgrades. Like a lot of things that may seem sensible on a personal level where labor is cheap/free, they don't make sense when you're paying someone $50+ an hour to do them.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by benterix on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @06:56AM (#38275764)
Yes, you are completely right. In my experience though, the machines do get upgrades if someone insists, and the tech department prefers the easiest possible way.

I remember in a n org I worked a few years ago we got new laptops with SSDs instead of HDDs. Everybody was happy except the people who worked with a lot of data as the first SSDs were very small like 128 GB (still the amount of disk space you would get in an entry-level MBP 2019 I think). So we asked for an upgrade and they replaced our SSDs rather than replacing whole laptops. But I'm sure it's place-dependent.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by staringback on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:10AM (#38219782)
$299 Inspirons these days come with NVMe storage and 6 core Intel CPUs
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by wlesieutre on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:15AM (#38219852)
Still the 1366x768 displays that they were using 10 years ago?
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by jsight on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:36AM (#38220154)
Just a quick glance at the dell website shows me an Inspiron 15 w/ 8GB RAM, and a 256GB nvme for $279. I'm sure the panel isn't great, but it is 1080p.

It is an i3, but still... this is $279! Do some bargain hunting and you can find some pretty decent machines for <$500 now.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by staringback on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:20AM (#38220722)
That 'i3' runs circles around i7 laptop CPUs from just a couple of years ago
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by stephenr on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:08PM (#38221400)
You do know what the "T" in "TCO" stands for right? Hint: it's not the price you paid for the hardware upfront.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by minimaul on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:54PM (#38222906)
At work, the m1/m2 airs are exactly what we buy for most employees. The base spec is absolutely fine for most of our staff, and they’ll get 3+ years out of them.

Edit: devs get 32G pros though, and we loathe the extra RAM pricing on those. Cheap compared to the cost of a developer, though!

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by greedo on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:51PM (#38225028)
Sounds like you're just guessing what "a regular company" would do. The company I work for, as boring as any "regular" company, was buying M1 MBPs with 16GB and 512GB two years ago. For anyone who preferred a Mac to a PC laptop. I personally know of three companies that just buy a MBP for anyone asking. They're not cheaping out on some Latitude or Inspiron pos.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by deafpolygon on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:16AM (#38216067)
> That's why I said normal office workers and students.

What? NO. 8GB is not enough for browsing and the proliferation of Electron apps these days. The solution shouldn't be constantly swapping, which is what all 8GB Apple devices do. This will lead to early SSD death and since the SSD is soldered on, that means the entire device is useless.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by aurareturn on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:45AM (#38216231)
Well, Apple has been using SSDs for a long time now. Do you know Mac users personally where the SSD died before something else in the computer?
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by Canada on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:19AM (#38216426)
Yes I have seen this. The disk write speed randomly gets super slow and tons of stuff just locks up at random as many many programs assume it'll be fine to do little writes synchronously. The whole machine becomes totally unusable.

I see it on computers (and phones too) whose owners bought the smallest capacity to avoid spending money on something they didn't think they would use.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by aurareturn on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:49AM (#38216955)
That's not what happens when an SSD reaches the write limit. It'll simply not let you write more data and becomes read only.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by deafpolygon on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:15AM (#38217128)
I have personally experienced this issue. It just gets very slow before slowly dying outright.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by aurareturn on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:38AM (#38220173)
On a Mac?
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by Canada on Saturday November 11, 2023 @01:08AM (#38227995)
Yes I have seen this occur on multiple MacBook.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by sbuk on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:51AM (#38220351)
What on earth are you doing to make that happen? Either you’re use case is thrashing the SSD, you have a faulty part or you’re exaggerating.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by deafpolygon on Saturday November 11, 2023 @01:54AM (#38228137)
Um, I don't know. Exaggeration? No, I only wish. Faulty part or not, it happened years after the purchase.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by Canada on Saturday November 11, 2023 @01:06AM (#38227991)
I've never had an SSD that just stopped allowing writes and returns an error. Instead it gets slower and slower until at some point attempting to write anything will just block forever. The process trying will be stuck in the I/O wait "D" state in Linux and be basically unkillable.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by mrguyorama on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:04PM (#38224516)
You can search this very forum where we posted stories when the M1s first came out, that they were churning through several percentage points of the life of the SSD within just a couple months. I think that was caused by a bug however
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by renegat0x0 on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:50AM (#38216260)
This article is about the PRO model. I doubt that normal should use PRO model. PRO model should have enough memory for a PRO person.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by reroute22 on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:05AM (#38216695)
To be completely fair, base 14" MBP is only Pro in the name. That laptop has only 2 ports, supports only 1 external monitor, has a low core count CPU, and a relatively weak GPU, disqualifying it for any "Pro" work well before RAM (or storage) even enter the discussion.

On the flip side, the very same laptop has a much better display than competing MacBook Air, and better in a manner that is observable in its entirety in non-professional casual use: visually better scrolling of web pages and documents; easier to see in bright sun; much more superior HDR movie watching experience.

It also has much better laptop speakers - completely irrelevant for professional use (like music production), but very relevant for movie watching.

Base 14" MBP is merely a better Netflix machine than MacBook Air is.

What you said about Pro, and what the article says about Pro, is very fair and quite excellent in fact for, uhm, actual Pro laptops, which is Mx Pro/Max based machines, not the new base 14" MBP on an Mx (small one) chip.

What I indeed find perplexing is the fact that 2 default 14" Mx MBP configurations that do not require any changes (they often ship faster, being default is a tangible difference) aren't 8 GB 512 and 16 GB 512, but 8 GB 512 and 8 GB 1TB. That I find odd, because I think yes, a small subset of office users might find a low core count but bigger RAM version useful in practice (I'm thinking some very heavy spreadsheet hitters kind of office power users, managers probably), but virtually no one in that category would actually care to have 1TB of SSD with everything being web-based and/or stored on company's servers in corporate environment. That is indeed odd. But maybe I'm wrong in my assumptions for this one - it's easy to be lacking any actual stats or data - and it's appropriate as well. I don't know.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by musicale on Saturday November 11, 2023 @09:20PM (#38236625)
I think Apple knows what they are doing. The 13" MacBook Pro with touchbar was another odd machine that "shouldn't exist" but it was their second-best selling laptop, presumably because of its form factor, features/performance, and price.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by torginus on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:21AM (#38216794)
Thing is, for regular office use, the M1 Air is perfectly fine, there's very little you gain if you go with the M3 Pro instead of the M1.

Funnily enough, I'm typing this from a 3 year old Thinkpad that I use for work, which has in all likelyhood a slower CPU than even the M1, but it's perfectly usable for dev work, because it has 64GB of RAM.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by anta40 on Saturday November 11, 2023 @01:16AM (#38228018)
As Android dev (yes I use Android Studio) who works with MBA 2017, I think it's enough... to a certain degree. As long as you don't open >20 browser tabs and running Android emulator on the same time, which is pain in the a*.

Of course, 16 GB (or more) is nicer.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by SebastianKra on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:33AM (#38216161)
I used a M1 with 16GB, and regularly had ~12GB in swap without noticing anything.

Once per day, I maybe got a slight 600ms hang when something was unexpectedly swapped in.

So I can imagine that 8GB will work okay, even if Chrome eats 30% of it.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by al_borland on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:48AM (#38215877)
If Chrome is the only reason someone feels they need more RAM, maybe what they really need is a new browser. A web browser should never even enter the conversation when talking about hitting hardware limitations.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by sneed_chucker on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:15PM (#38221488)
Once upon a time that was a reasonable position to hold.

But nowadays full dynamic applications are shipped in a browser tab, and a huge number of "desktop" applications are written in JavaScript using electron, so they're essentially an isolated chrome instance for running that app.

People talk about chrome being a resource hog, and maybe it is, but if you have dozens of JavaScript applications running in different tabs, then chrome is just taking the blame for the fact that it's essentially serving as the user application layer of your OS.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by LocalH on Saturday November 11, 2023 @10:03AM (#38230867)
Putting applications in the browser was a huge mistake that we're still paying for today.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by acuozzo on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:50AM (#38217754)
> if you are a dev, then Docker is also an egregious example

I'm glad I stuck with embedded development. The biggest resource-hog I interact with regularly is GCC.

I can be productive on a P3 with 256M of RAM.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by solarkraft on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:04AM (#38219705)
> I regularly saw Dock and Finder leak and eat gigabytes of RAM each

Make sure to view "Real mem" in Activity Monitor. That's the amount of data actually stored in your RAM, the rest being swapped out. That number can be quite small, even for apps that theoretically use a lot of memory.

I have found Docker to be an "actual" memory hog with not much of it being swapped out, but could imagine that it would be possible in the case of Finder.

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by Delk on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:34AM (#38220912)
I don't know how macOS manages memory or reports its use, but how does the data having been swapped out change anything? If N pages of data of those processes have been swapped out, that means those processes have allocated and used that many pages of memory (plus any that are actually in RAM). The OS heuristics just decided it wasn't worthwhile to keep those particular pages in RAM under current circumstances.

If the processes just allocated a lot of memory and never touched it, it might be reasonable to say they don't actually use it because the OS might never actually reserve any physical resources for it. (Happens a lot e.g. in Linux with memory overcommit allowed by default and some processes allocating dozens of gigabytes of virtual memory, most of which they never actually use.)

But would those pages then count towards swap use either? Only dirty pages end up in swap. Unless macOS counts allocated but untouched pages towards used swap as committed resources.

edit: better wording

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by vikramkr on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:43PM (#38222769)
Swap memory use is worse than actual memory use. If it just reserving a big block and not using it then fine whatever but if it's using a lot of swap that means ram is probably bottlenecking you since swap is slow.
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by solarkraft on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:40PM (#38226033)
It's of course slower than real RAM, but Apple are using pretty fast SSDs and possibly a novel model of swapping, making it effectively pretty good (certainly not perfect!).
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by Rebelgecko on Saturday November 11, 2023 @02:30PM (#38233654)
Doesn't swapping to SSD make the laptop EOL come even quicker?
Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by xw3090 on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:20PM (#38221554)
Do you know of any recent benchmarks to back up this claim? It's entirely quantifiable.

Also, it's such a controversial thing you would think if the difference was so stark The Verge, Linus Tech Tips or Max Tech, etc. would, you know, actually measure it.

The only kinda objective side-by-side test I could find, on typical workloads, was this 2 year old video on the M1 which stated the 8gb did well on typical multitask workloads. For Chrome tab test the bottleneck was the internet speed, not RAM. Lightroom and Final Cut Export was slower, but typical multitasking workloads basically matched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h487I_5xOZU

Obviously things change so where does this stand today?

Re:Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it by seec on Sunday November 12, 2023 @01:05PM (#38242575)
The reality is that the exact same hardware uses less RAM on a base install of Windows than it does on a base install of macOS. Having used both hackintosh and real Mac booted on Windows (without bootcamp, as a "real" PC) I am certain of that fact.

And in usage I also find macOS and its Apps to more often than not actually take more RAM. It isn't a bad thing pe se, it often means more speed because more things are cached, available fast and the like.

However, it is quite annoying when Apple simultaneously pretend the contrary and at the same time upcharge for their soldered RAM in a greedy way. If anything, a "Pro" PC laptop in this price range will have not only at least 16GB as default but is highly likely to have 4-8GB for its dedicated GPU when with Apple Silicon, the RAM advertised has to be shared and any GPU activity lower even more what can comfortably be used as system memory.

The more time passes, the more Apple Silicon feels like the ultimate scam. At this you better have a very real need for battery life because it really does not make a lot of sense otherwise. In fact, if it is only autonomy that you need and not true mobility, it would be better to buy cheaper performance equivalent PC and buy one of those large carriable battery.