News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by ajross on Thursday November 09, 2023 @02:01PM (#38209341)
For those unaware, these rules are pervasive in the US corporate world, and stem directly from Vizcaino v. Microsoft in 1996. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permatemp

Effectively the fact that an employer treats a temporary employee "the same" as a regular one (i.e. by granting them the same perks) is construed by courts as evidence that they are not temporary.

So, if a company wants to hire temp/contractor employees, they just can't do this. It's not a "caste" thing, it's not about deliberate discrimination, it's not about keeping wages low or reducing overhead, and it's absolutely not unique to Google.

Blame the courts, basically. It was a terrible decision, for exactly this reason. Its effect is directly contra to its intent.

> If you worked with a TVC, you'd get training that felt like you were learning how to own a House Elf: "Remember, never give them clothing or they'll be free! And report them if they ever claim to work for Google."

Yes! That's exactly what happens. And it did, to Microsoft, and it was extremely expensive. So no one wants to see the same thing happen to them.

Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by arrosenberg on Thursday November 09, 2023 @02:28PM (#38209759)
> Blame the courts, basically. It was a terrible decision, for exactly this reason. Its effect is directly contra to its intent.

Blame them for enforcing labor law? Why not blame the companies for exploiting labor by misclassifying them to deny benefits?

Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by ajross on Thursday November 09, 2023 @02:37PM (#38209935)
Again, to repeat: the desire in the suit (to prevent employers from inappropriately using temporary labor) was valid. The EFFECT of the suit is exactly the opposite: it's forced employers to performatively discriminate against temps in every way they can find as a way to prevent the kind of finding that hurt MSFT.

Thus, it's a bad ruling. I'm all for reform of contractor labor laws, but this decision broke things.

Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by arrosenberg on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:15PM (#38211431)
No one is forcing employers into performative hysterics, it's a reactionary choice by the corporate legal community. MSFT was guilty of what they were accused of. If they don't misclassify workers, they won't lose such a suit.
Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by ajross on Thursday November 09, 2023 @04:57PM (#38211927)
> No one is forcing employers into performative hysterics, it's a reactionary choice by the corporate legal community.

"The rest of the world is wrong, only I know the truth in this thread on a random web forum" is an unpersuasive frame to be arguing from. Corporate legal departments may be inflexible and hidebound, but they surely know this stuff better than you do.

No, this is the way it works. If you do what MS did and offer unrestricted perks to your temps, they'll sue you and you'll lose. Period.

What you're arguing amounts to "no one should hire temporary labor to work alongside salaried employees". And, OK, that's a position. But if that's what you want then you should make that case and not argue that somehow Viscaino doesn't exist, because it does.

Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by arrosenberg on Thursday November 09, 2023 @05:36PM (#38212366)
They weren’t temps, read the case - average tenure, 11 years. And the entire thing started because the IRS said they were dodging payroll taxes, so the common law employees sued for what they were rightfully owed. MSFT acknowledged wrongdoing and settled the case.
Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by pseg134 on Thursday November 09, 2023 @05:27PM (#38212272)
They will only win if you are violating labor law. Why is that so hard for you to understand. If they hadn’t violated labor law they would have appealed and won. And here you are 26 years later trying the case again on a “silly web forum”.
Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by AndriyKunitsyn on Thursday November 09, 2023 @06:12PM (#38212735)
I don't think that the parent isn't aware of that. I think the parent says that providing employee perks for your contractors _is_ violating the US labor law.
Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by lazide on Thursday November 09, 2023 @10:23PM (#38214719)
Because defacto treating them like employees means they are employees - with all associated benefits/tax treatment.

Which Microsoft would never have hired them, if that was the case, they would have hired normal FTEs.

So either 1) hire contractors and treat them as contractors (without the employee style treatment), or be sued later.

Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by fijiaarone on Thursday November 09, 2023 @07:50PM (#38213514)
Microsoft wasn’t offering unrestricted perks to contractors, they were treating them like second class employees, paying them less, not giving them benefits or allowing time off, dictating additional rules, excluding them, and avoiding existing labor, discrimination, and tax laws — exactly the same thing they (and every other big corporation) are still doing now — with a codified fiction in place that didn’t exist previously.

Microsoft didn’t lose the lawsuit, they won a settlement — and their lawyers and lobbyists made sure it would never happen again.

Most corporations have preferred vendors and the 50% plus savings in salary and benefits has a large kickback that finds its way back to the employer.

The real issue that was skirted around in the lawsuit was that Microsoft actually owned the vendors that supplied them with contractors.

Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by gumby on Thursday November 09, 2023 @02:15PM (#38209538)
> Blame the courts, basically.

No, blame these companies for trying hard to avoid workplace protection.

Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by ajross on Thursday November 09, 2023 @02:18PM (#38209584)
No, it's got nothing to do with workplace protection or wages. The original suit was actually about participation in the stock purchase program (which in the mid-90's was extremely lucrative at MSFT!), something that no contractor would normally expect to get. But because the contractors got free food at the cafe (or whatever), they did. Or rather they got a settlement making up for the stock the courts said they should have been able to get.

Basically, the rule per Vizcaino is "Any benefit offered to salaried employees must be offered to temporary ones too unless you deliberately discriminate against them in all your other benefits not related to their job."

And yes, that's a stupid rule. But it's the rule, and it's universally enforced at every US employer large enough to have a legal department.

Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by svachalek on Thursday November 09, 2023 @02:43PM (#38210040)
The game is that the contractors are supposedly not working for the company that they're actually working for. Anything that might break that illusion puts the company at risk of needing to treat them as the actual employees that they are.
Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by mistrial9 on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:12PM (#38210509)
yes, it has everything to do with workplace protection and wages
Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by hughesjj on Thursday November 09, 2023 @02:57PM (#38210265)
Yup, these companies could always just hire outright
Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by esafak on Thursday November 09, 2023 @05:23PM (#38212238)
So if they want to trim costs and not do that it would be better if they hired no-one?

It is the same with undocumented workers. Would it better if they were deported than to be denied benefits afforded to citizens?

Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by lmm on Thursday November 09, 2023 @06:58PM (#38213100)
By that logic it's always fine for companies to get around labour protections.

Yes, it would be better if they hired no-one. When your job conditions are beneath human dignity, you don't get to hire people for that job, even if that means your stock price doesn't grow quite as much and GDP is lower this year.

Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by esafak on Thursday November 09, 2023 @08:47PM (#38214068)
I don't think workers generally agree with you. Certainly in the tech world, it is hard to describe contract work as "beneath human dignity". For blue collar work, I would understand your point.
Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by lmm on Thursday November 09, 2023 @09:14PM (#38214282)
> Certainly in the tech world, it is hard to describe contract work as "beneath human dignity".

Realistically in the US the distinction is mainly about whether you have medical coverage. Plenty of people work with no or bad medical coverage because they are some combination of optimistic/greedy/desperate; to assess how humane that is you'd have to look at how they feel about it after getting diagnosed with something that they struggle to get decent treatment for because they weren't an employee.

Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by starcraft2wol on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:22AM (#38219948)
It's not "fine" but it's extremely hard to get them to do things they are disincentivized to do. And most government attempts do not result in the desired behavior.
Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by hudsonjr on Thursday November 09, 2023 @02:58PM (#38210293)
I do think the net result of this wad bad.

I remember before this decision, I worked somewhere where people could take longer to be promoted as a temp, maybe even 2 years. I don't know that this was exploitive, it was usually a mix of developing competency and department having budget. If someone left the company, usually someone got immediately promoted out of being a temp. If not that, it was dependent on department budget increase in the next fiscal year.

The legal change meant some roles like QA were put on a company switching treadmill.

Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by mistrial9 on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:11PM (#38210495)
no - the reason the issue went to court in the first place, was MSFT and Apple and others, not hiring (stock, health insurance) and then making contractors "prove themselves" a.k.a. extra overtime, demeaning social situations, lower perks etc
Re:What I learned getting acquired by Google by ponector on Thursday November 09, 2023 @03:30PM (#38210784)
Do you really think that Google should not be blamed that in cutting costs they don't want to provide same benefits for people they lease?

If they had a will, they could easily force their vendors to provide same level of benefits.

This is happening exactly to cut costs, to keep reported headcount low. There will be no news if Google cut 50000 of such contractors, simply because they are not counted, not treated like a people. Just a resource, leased from another company.