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Re:Seeing Like a Bank by orangesite on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @02:08PM (#38181320)
It's absolutely great how @patio11 managed to recreate exactly the same system within stripe despite being fully aware of it.

(I save up my karma points precisely so I can burn them on comments like this.)

Re:Seeing Like a Bank by e63f67dd-065b on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @02:20PM (#38181489)
My impression of what he wrote is that it's an explanation of the status quo, not a denunciation of it. In his conclusion:

> Although it certainly doesn’t feel like it to people who hit edge cases, the tiered support model is a technology which took us decades to popularize and which made the world much better. It brought down the cost of financial services and supported product innovation which would have been impossible under the mid-century bank staffing model. We could not have credit cards or discount brokerages without the tiered support model. The biography of Charles Schwab makes this point persuasively at considerable length: competent telephone operations were instrumental to bringing equity ownership to the middle class. You should prefer a world with credit cards and discount brokerages to one which doesn’t have them, even as you listen to hold music occasionally

Tiered support is here to stay because tiered support is cheap and resistant to the "unintelligent customer DoS" (my words, not his). As he points out, you can have professional troubleshooters with the capability, authority, and expertise to troubleshoot the problem, but their labour costs in the hundreds of dollars an hour.

I personally think there is a reasonable model of the world where customers explicitly pay a hundred dollar fee to have a highest-tier escalation to the office of the CEO/equivalent troubleshooting team and have them take a look at your case, but this is a model that has not yet been developed or in wide use anywhere.

Re:Seeing Like a Bank by boilerupnc on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @03:12PM (#38182132)
I’ve been having a fun ride reading “QualityLand” [0] .

In that world - those who have QualityPoints can exert far more escalation force on all parts of their life (change the traffic signal now for 10 units) than lower level folks. Your comment reminds me of a world where paying fees gets you faster and better access. Sadly - Sounds familiar.

[0]https://www.bookbrowse.com/reviews/index.cfm/book_number/406...

Re:Seeing Like a Bank by Sebguer on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @03:27PM (#38182332)
This sounds like effectively the same premise as Doctorow's Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom.
Re:Seeing Like a Bank by WhiteOwlLion on Saturday November 11, 2023 @08:35PM (#38236413)
Fastrak anyone?
Re:Seeing Like a Bank by krisoft on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @04:14AM (#38188223)
> there is a reasonable model of the world where customers explicitly pay a hundred dollar fee to have a highest-tier escalation to the office of the CEO/equivalent troubleshooting team

It is tricky. On a first order I agree with you, but then i think about second order consequences: What if the escalation route becomes profitable? Will that incentivize the company to keep the pain points, or perhaps even engineer more of them?

Also, would it be clear what does the money pays for? Imagine a situation where the computer says no (that is the system makes a decision adverse to the customer’s interest, such as closing an account, not approving a loan, security freezing assets etc), and the costumer pays the fee to get it escalated. The CEO office person reads the case, applies their troubleshooting skills, and they independent of the computer come up with the same answer. Now from the point of view of the costumer it feels they paid hundreds of dollar for nothing. From the point of view of the company they gave the customer what they promised: spent valuable resources on escalating the customer’s complaint. If they give the fee back to the customer they are loosing money, if they don’t they further antagonise a bad situation. Which can have reputational effects, and or wasting even more resources.

And this might sound like an edge case, but if the system is well operating these kind of cases will be dominating. Simply because if the CEO’s office overrides the normal processes too often then either they are profiting from the escalation route (see first point) or the normal system is faulty.

How would you dodge these two bullets?

Re:Seeing Like a Bank by zarkenfrood on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @04:31AM (#38188308)
>I personally think there is a reasonable model of the world where customers explicitly pay a hundred dollar fee to have a highest-tier escalation to the office of the CEO/equivalent troubleshooting team and have them take a look at your case, but this is a model that has not yet been developed or in wide use anywhere.

This already exists in a sense. High net worth clients/well established business clients with long term relationships do get priority remediation and troubleshooting. The cost is just much higher than $100.

Re:Seeing Like a Bank by notthatoldguy on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @11:16AM (#38192540)
People call it "premuim banking", and it's a widely popular thing that costs not that much
Re:Seeing Like a Bank by sonicanatidae on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @12:00PM (#38193301)
The problems with tiered support are back to where all problems come from. Humans.

As someone that's managed technical teams for 3+ decades, I've seen the deterioration, first hand. It's all about costs/profits.

C-suites view support (IT in my case) as a cost-center, without seeming to understand that our infrastructure is what all revenue travels over. We are a cost, but a cost with a purpose. In the pursuit of ever-higher numbers, they continue to replace local staff with 3rd party entities who are incentivized to close calls, not solve problems. These 3rd parties often have wholly unqualified staff. In some cases, the staff is qualified, but doesn't have the access or the information required to address the issue.

Let's not go to paid access to support. With humans involved, in less than a decade, there will be 1 person answering the "poor folks" line, that you'll wait for 2 hours to speak to, while being told every 30 seconds just how important your call is. The rest of support will be "generating revenue" by resolving problems for better-heeled clients.

Re:Seeing Like a Bank by cbsmith on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @05:34PM (#38198173)
> C-suites view support (IT in my case) as a cost-center, without seeming to understand that our infrastructure is what all revenue travels over.

I think that's well understood as cost-centers go. What's also understood is that improving that infrastructure beyond a certain point doesn't change how much revenue travels over it.

Re:Seeing Like a Bank by sonicanatidae on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:20PM (#38268147)
What's not understood is 100MB switches are OLLLLDDDDDDDD and outdated, and in some cases, the reason IT can't get your radiology image to transfer between DICOM servers in a reasonable amount of time.

It works, so it doesn't need to be changed is how most infrastructure deteriorates. Ask me how I know this. :)

Re:Seeing Like a Bank by cbsmith on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:25PM (#38268231)
That's not in conflict with what I'm saying. Costs centers require a certain amount of investment to ensure the business runs efficiently. If you under fund it, the results are often catastrophic. However, if you over fund it (as in, put in more money than is needed to keep things working properly), there's generally no additional positive impact on the bottom line. So, from the business side, your main goal tends to be to find ways to keep cost centers running efficiently with less money... without inviting disaster.
Re:Seeing Like a Bank by RationalDino on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @02:18PM (#38181465)
I'm not sure which part you are referring to by "exactly the same system", or to what extent patio11 is personally responsible for it.

However listen to his explanations of the incentives, benefits, and downsides. Then remember that he was working within a company that had the exact same incentives (eg same regulatory regimes), who was going to be hiring people out of the same financial system. And remember that there are parts of this that he think really make the world better.

Therefore the expected result really should be, "Somewhat better iteration on the basic thing that everyone else does." And so it is no surprise that it would include enough of what you don't like that you'd see it as "exactly the same system".

Re:Seeing Like a Bank by orliesaurus on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @02:43PM (#38181779)
what he do?
Re:Seeing Like a Bank by throwawaaarrgh on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @10:47PM (#38186526)
Human organizations are, strangely enough, natural systems, which are notoriously hard to control without making them worse. It's one thing to know how a beaver dam works; it's another to muck about with the river hoping to come up with a better dam.
Re:Seeing Like a Bank by throwawayyhbd on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @03:54AM (#38188109)
Seriously someone should create Kubernetes - but for company-building.
Re:Seeing Like a Bank by andrewflnr on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @12:54AM (#38187245)
Are you confusing Patrick Collison, who cofounded Stripe, with Patrick McKenzie, who joined years later to work on documentation?
Re:Seeing Like a Bank by libraryatnight on Wednesday November 08, 2023 @01:08AM (#38187286)
This was my thought. This write-up is for understanding a system not to fix it, but to abuse it and profit from it. It's sort of black hat in a way.