News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by UniverseHacker on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:06PM (#38153720)
His actions made perfect sense from his utilitarian Effective Altruist worldview. He was stealing from rich people, and giving the money to what he saw as "worthy causes."

He was pretty open even before the collapse about how he decided to get as rich as possible, as fast as possible, at all costs, as long as (in his own moral calculus) the net benefits were positive.

EAs are arguably a 'cult' obsessed with AI risk, which they mostly believe will end the world in the next few years. So to them, that pretty much justifies anything that could help mitigate that risk. He would see it as immoral not to become a criminal in order to fund AI risk research.

Personally, I think these AI risk concerns are legitimate, but I don't agree with these methods.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by jaidhyani on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:09PM (#38153760)
> His actions made perfect sense from his utilitarian Effective Altruist worldview.

They don't. Everyone in EA (AFAICT) has been pretty clear about this. Lying and undermining trust and institutions does tremendous lasting harm.

I am also tired of "people are very concerned about X and think that it's important, so they're basically a cult".

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by UniverseHacker on Sunday November 05, 2023 @07:47PM (#38157465)
I've been involved (or at least following) the rationalist and EA communities since the beginning. I call it a cult somewhat tongue in cheek, but it certainly has a lot more cult-like aspects beyond just "pretty concerned about AI risk." I mean, they have a charismatic leader whose unusual ideas about everything from AI risk to sexuality are more or less carbon copied, and practiced in group houses, etc. in some pretty creepy ways.

Literally anyone from the outside would easily be convinced they were pretty much your standard apocalyptic sex cult, just from accurately describing it.

I don't really care if people on EA forums don't all agree with SBF, but his type of thinking is standard if you use utilitarianism to make decisions in the real world, and it leads to some pretty horrific stuff. Consequentialism / utilitarianism are widely accepted in EA, and if you take that to the extreme, it can justify things like this.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by bluepizza on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:12PM (#38153796)
You won't see me defending EA often. Or ever, actually.

But the fact that a few extremists would take an idea way beyond any measure of reason is a human effect, not an EA effect.

I can't think of any good ideas that haven't been distorted by a few. That's no reason to abandon them.

My personal opinion is that EA is mostly worthless navel gazing, but that doesn't mean that we should dismiss it over the SBFs.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by username332211 on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:30PM (#38154023)
What is an extremist w.r.t. an ethical system? An ethical philosophy is not some scripture you can interpret and misinterpret.

The existence of extremists implies the existence of moderates. What are they? When their moral code says "Fraud, in this particular circumstances, is good", are they the ones that can't shake off the vice of honesty?

Or are they the ones who use motivated reasoning to bring their moral philosophy to conformance with their instinctual moral feelings?

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by morelisp on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:16PM (#38153859)
Institutionally, EA was defending SBF up until he was arrested, not up until the point he started saying stupid shit. He was doing that for a long time before he was arrested.

https://time.com/6262810/sam-bankman-fried-effective-altruis...

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by eddtries on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:20PM (#38153901)
I disagree with this because I was vocally against SBF in the EA forums prior to him being arrested, as were many others.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by morelisp on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:21PM (#38153909)
Who are you?
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by eddtries on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:23PM (#38153939)
Someone who used to be vocal on EA Forums & was around for a couple years. I got less involved for other reasons after the whole SBF stuff.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by morelisp on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:26PM (#38153981)
So I got "guy who posted on forum" on one side and William MacAskill and Nick Beckstead (and, well, SBF himself - he left CEA voluntarily right?) on the other - which of these would you say has the institutional support?
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by eddtries on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:30PM (#38154025)
Will was slow to come out against SBF sure, but the majority of people were asking why he was being silent WAY before the arrest. Are you involved in anyway, out of interest? As in, were you there or are you going off of media reports? I don't know many people involved in EA who'd say it was institutionally pro SBF, just that a couple people were silent too long. Interesting if there are some.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by morelisp on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:36PM (#38154097)
I have no connection to CEA or SBF, I'm just someone who's desperate to recover moral philosophy from financialization by wannabe tech bros.

Edit for reply:

> around October/November 2022

i.e. after the run and it's clear he's going to be arrested... Usual EA bullshit.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by eddtries on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:40PM (#38154144)
Okay, then you probably don't really know what EA's stance generally was. You can look at EA Forum's posts around October/November 2022 to see what the overwhelming opinion was, and shortly after you can see Will coming out saying he shouldn't be seen as the face of EA, etc... At the absolute most, the supporting stance could be seen as silence while they tried to work out what was happening with funding at the Future Fund etc, but only if the "Institutional Opinion" is simply that of MacAskill. The overwhelming opinion was that what SBF did was awful, and questions about if it'd be possible to return funds were the primary discussion.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by eddtries on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:52PM (#38154289)
Really?

> Institutionally, EA was defending SBF up until he was arrested,

Nope, here's why & evidence

> i.e. after the run and it's clear he's going to be arrested... Usual EA bullshit.

Nice moving goal posts :)

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by kodapoda on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:27PM (#38153993)
> His actions made perfect sense from his utilitarian Effective Altruist worldview. He was stealing from rich people, and giving the money to what he saw as "worthy causes."

Clearly this is a false assumption. He was not stealing from rich people (as if stealing from reach people is a justifiable EA practice), and was not spending the majority of the stolen money on worthy causes (worthy by EA standards). He was buying property for himself and his circle, signing deals with stadiums, covering Alameda Research losses, etc. Even for a deluded man like SBF, don't think it's possible to interpret that as an improvement of the world's conditions.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by TheFreim on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:18PM (#38153874)
> He was stealing from rich people

I am not familiar with all of the intimate details, I did not think that the scam was targeted at "rich people" but rather advertised generally and preyed upon get-rich-quick crypto attitudes. Am I mistaken?

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by omginternets on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:31PM (#38154046)
I share your assessment, and have further observed that the financially insecure are over-represented among the get-rich-quick crowd. Rich people are by and large good at not losing money.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by simonebrunozzi on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:24PM (#38153953)
> He was stealing from rich people

Are you sure? My gut says that he mostly damaged not-rich people. I don't know too much about the specific case, but I know enough about the general crypto space to have an opinion, although not sure how to provide data to support it. You don't provide data either, though.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by kodapoda on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:36PM (#38154096)
I have a growing concern that by engaging in this argument we are making it more acceptable. It's not OK to steal from "rich people". It's not OK to blame everything on the 1%. Online platforms are filled with garbage about the 1%, and most posters are Americans, all of whom actually are in this 1% globally.

If you own a car and/or a home - are you rich? Is it acceptable to steal your $1K investment and spend it on pseudo-EA causes? An argument so ethically bankrupt, I can't believe people even type it on a public forum.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by simonebrunozzi on Sunday November 05, 2023 @03:08PM (#38155108)
My point is not that it's ok to steal from the rich people.

My point is that I suspect that SBF stole mostly from non-rich people, which is also NOT ok.

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by kodapoda on Sunday November 05, 2023 @04:46PM (#38155977)
My frustration about engaging with this argument is in agreement with you—sorry if I wasn't clear. The parent commenter made it seem like FTX only defrauded some abstract rich people, which, according to them, would somehow make it more acceptable.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by wombat-man on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:18PM (#38153882)
You still think he was actually going to give away his money?
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by eddtries on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:22PM (#38153916)
I know for a fact he did give away money. I did some data analysis voluntary work for a charity aggregator he used and saw records, he absolutely donated sizeable amounts to charity (as he said he did).
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by dustingetz on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:29PM (#38154010)
he gave away other people’s money to charity, specifically his users’ money that he was entrusted with.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by eddtries on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:32PM (#38154057)
I'm very familiar with the case, I was saying simply that there were donations to EA-aligned charities
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by morelisp on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:41PM (#38154150)
In which case the word you're looking for is closer to "laundered", not "donated".
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by wombat-man on Sunday November 05, 2023 @04:12PM (#38155692)
Oh I didn't know that. He also got a lot of praise for saying he'd give all his fortune away someday. They called him there most generous man. Idk, maybe he would have.
Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by eddtries on Monday November 06, 2023 @11:58AM (#38165148)
I think he definitely went off the rails with spending on himself, but he absolutely donated the way he said he was too. There were a lot of questions from charity founders who received funding wondering if they should give back, and there were much larger organisations where they probably had similar discussions but not in the open so I didn’t see them

Edit: for context this was a large aggregator for “effective charities” with other billionaires and if you sorted by max he was on top for the years I did data analysis

Re:Sam Bankman-Fried is a feature, not a bug by wombat-man on Thursday November 09, 2023 @08:50PM (#38214096)
Awesome. Well, I'm still going to rag on him for every other reason.