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Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by cubefox on Sunday November 05, 2023 @08:21AM (#38150899)
A lot of those points also apply to other European countries.

Though regarding the quotation marks, that seems to be more the fault of the local keyboard layouts. I don't understand why German keyboards don't have the keys to write „ord“. MS Word relies on a software solution to automatically convert "ord" into the German format, but most software (like browsers) understandably don't bother with implementing such replacements. The same thing applies to ' and ’. (Is this even the character I have in mind?)

Regarding ChatGPT being bad at Norwegian: That's excusable, as the performance of the model is dependent on the amount of available training data.

American prudishness. Yeah. Every country has its own preferences, but among Western countries, the US seems special with their aversion to nudity. Excluding Australia perhaps. In the US violence is okay but nudity isn't, in Germany violence isn't okay but nudity is, in France both are okay. The US has a stronger aversion to nudity than most European countries, but it's interesting that in the US a sex scene without nudity appears to be less offensive than a nude scene without sex. As a German, that always seemed absurd to me, and presumably most Europeans would agree. But in the end it means that, because Google is an American company, YouTube globally allows no nudity (not even boobs), while being completely fine with strong violence and even gore.

Regarding am/pm, yeah, that sometimes still trips me up. According to Wikipedia:

> Other than in English-speaking countries and some Spanish-speaking countries, the terms a.m. and p.m. are seldom used and often unknown.

Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by josephg on Sunday November 05, 2023 @09:07AM (#38151225)
> among Western countries, the US seems special with their aversion to nudity. Excluding Australia perhaps.

Australian here. Culturally we seem less comfortable with nudity than a lot of parts of Europe, but we’re not as bad as the US. It boils my blood how much online spaces (like Facebook) are moderated according to American standards.

Most software I use also can’t handle the fact that I mix American and Australian English spelling. (Programming always uses American spelling but I’ll use Australian spelling in other contexts.) All of my devices either complain about “color” or “colour”, and I’m constantly being told off or autocorrected for using my own language in a nuanced way.

Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by crazygringo on Sunday November 05, 2023 @09:57AM (#38151651)
> why German keyboards don't have the keys to write „ord“

I'm assuming for the same reason American/English keyboards don't have the keys to write “place”, just "place". Which is because American/English typewriters didn't -- they invented straight quotes to save extra keys. And looking up on Google Images, it looks like German typewriters were the same -- Shift+2 was a straight double quote.

It's my personal opinion that this was the original sin -- that typewriters implemented straight quotes rather than curly quotes, to save an extra column of keys. Imagine there's a parallel universe out there, just like ours, except straight quotes were never invented, and everybody actually types opening and closing quotes explicitly, and word processors never had to invent any "smart quotes" feature at all...

Still, I'm more surprised by German typewriters than English ones. In English, you can "get away" with straight quotes, they don't stick out too badly. But in German, the opening quote is in the totally wrong position, at the top instead of the bottom!

Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by cubefox on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:22AM (#38152502)
Ah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm a little too young to have experience with typewriters. I assume most European typewriter layouts were even more spatially constrained than the US one (due to the presence of special characters not found in the standard Latin Alphabet), so there wasn't much room to allow two quotation marks. And the fixed-width typewriter "font" didn't look properly typographic anyway.

If the straight quote hadn't been invented, the influence in programming languages would have been interesting. Then presumably there would be no common quotation mark present on all keyboards. So perhaps programming languages would have used various kinds of brackets only. Straight quotes aren't great anyway for most things, as they can't really be nested unambiguously.

Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by cratermoon on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:33AM (#38152639)
On the MacBook keyboard with US or CA input, you can get “” with option left bracket/left curly brace and ‘’ with option right bracket/right curly brace. With a little practice it's not that much harder to do. I'm still not quite up to speed with it, but it's nice. Should contractions also use ’?

Now you know.

Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by WalterBright on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:06PM (#38153724)
There's also ASCII. How many characters can you fit into 7 bits? Compromises get made.
Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by crazygringo on Sunday November 05, 2023 @03:27PM (#38155306)
Indeed. In hindsight, the tilde (~), backtick (`) and caret (^) turned out to be useless for their original purposes in ASCII -- they'd been used on typewriters to overprint accents, but you couldn't overprint on a computer screen. Same with the underscore (_). While the backslash (\) was a truly strange mark that IBM included for "reverse division", apparently to support ALGOL logical operations ("\/" and "/\").

In hindsight the underscore and backslash been useful in computing, so I'd say we'd have done better to use the tilde and backtick slots for completing pairs of curly quotes instead! Of course, hindsight being 20/20 and all that...

Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by cubefox on Sunday November 05, 2023 @04:09PM (#38155675)
I think even underscore and backslash weren't necessary in computing, even though they were put to use once they were there. The @ was also really not necessary. And a lot of those invisible characters weren't either. We should have had just one line break character, since the distinction between CR and LF makes no sense for computers, and certainly caused a lot of incompatibility. As you said, hindsight...
Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by WalterBright on Sunday November 05, 2023 @04:12PM (#38155697)
CR and LF made sense for mechanical printers.

LF was used a lot for glass editors connected at low baud rates.

Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by cratermoon on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:30AM (#38152597)
>> Other than in English-speaking countries and some Spanish-speaking countries, the terms a.m. and p.m. are seldom used and often unknown.

I did not know that. The terms are from the Latin ante meridiem and post meridiem (meridiem, midday, ante before, post after) so it seemed logical to me that any Romance language would have them. But then, English is not a Romance language (but borrowed heavily from them) so, chalk another one up to English being an absolute mess.

Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by Tams80 on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:13PM (#38153810)
You meant to say 'delightful smorgasbord' of a language.

Don't worry; I'll forgive your insolence this time.

Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by cratermoon on Thursday November 09, 2023 @12:10PM (#38207718)
I'm originally from Texas. I reserve the right to call English a mess. Y'all should see how Texans pronounce Spanish words.
Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by cubefox on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:58PM (#38154371)
Other languages write e.g. 6:00 instead of 6:00 am, and 18:00 instead of 6:00 pm. When you talk about analog clocks you can presumably say something like "it shows six o'clock in the afternoon". (What's the opposite of afternoon by the way? Morning? But isn't that the opposite of evening? Or just ante meridiem? But that's Latin.)
Re:The surprisingly subtle ways Microsoft Word has changed h... by SushiHippie on Sunday November 05, 2023 @05:51PM (#38156525)
In german there is "Vormittag" and "Nachmittag". Vormittag is the time between the morning and noon. Nachmittag is the time between noon and the evening.

Mittag = noon Vor = before -> "beforenoon" (literal translation of Vormittag) Nach = after -> "afternoon" (literal translation of Nachmittag)

But "vormittag" just translates to "morning" (with deepL and google translate).

Though there seems to exist "forenoon".