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Re: by thaumasiotes on Sunday November 05, 2023 @07:34AM (#38150592)
> There is a reason why conjunction (AND) is also called logical multiplication, and disjunction (OR) logical addition.

Really? The connection between AND and multiplication is obvious, but disjunction doesn't behave like addition. (For one thing, just like AND, it destroys information, which multiplication does do and addition doesn't.) Addition would usually be XOR.

In fact, AND and XOR are what you get when you apply multiplication and addition to the integers (mod 2).

Re: by dvt on Sunday November 05, 2023 @07:56AM (#38150734)
It's called logical addition which is different than arithmetic addition, so it's best to not conflate the two. It's called "addition" because you "add" another propostion, creating a disjunction. And by the rules of logic, as long as the original proposition was true, the truth value is preserved no matter how many propositions you introduce (or "add").

    A ⊢ ((A ∨ B) ∨ C) ... ∨ n
Re: by thaumasiotes on Sunday November 05, 2023 @07:59AM (#38150754)
> It's called "addition" because you "add" another propostion, creating a disjunction.

By that argument, conjunction is also called "addition". Perhaps there's a different reason?

The choice of terminology, contrasting "logical addition" with "logical multiplication", obviously indicates that logical addition is supposed to be analogous to addition. What is the analogy?

Re: by andai on Sunday November 05, 2023 @08:37AM (#38151005)
I don't know if this relates to formal logic, but in C a true value is defined as not zero, so all nonzero values are treated as the same value. So the only way to get a false is to OR (or add) two zeroes, making the two operations equivalent as far as boolean logic goes.

Actually, you can add 1 and -1 to get 0, which breaks the model... Hmm...

Re: by EGreg on Sunday November 05, 2023 @09:52AM (#38151617)
The analogy is deep. But actually the relationship is as follows:

P(A u B) = P(A) + P(B) - P(A^B)

P(A ^ B) = P(A u B) - P(A) - P(B)

And to the guy who said xor is addition — no it’s not:

P(A xor B) = P(A) + P(B) - 2 * P(A^B)

In Probability, when you have a space of outcomes, doing a Union on two disjoint events (sets of outcomes) the probabilities add. Whereas doing an Intersection on two non-disjoint events those probabilities multiply. If two events have no outcomes in common, for instance, the probability of them both occurring is zero.

When you “condition” probability on an event X happening, you restrict the space of all outcomes to that set X, and intersect every event with it.

When you condiition B[n] = A[n] given that (A[n-1] AND … A[1]) having already happened, you have a sales funnel and each step is independent of the previous, so the probabilities multiply.

It is also called a Markov Chain if you have a discrete set of possibilities at each step so you can form a matrix.

Re: by cubefox on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:09PM (#38153057)
Interesting, I never saw the arithmetic probability formula for xor.

Though the original topic was truth values, not probabilities. To make it short, conjunctions in probability are multiplicative when they are independent, and disjunctions in probability are additive when they are mutually exclusive.

Re: by EGreg on Sunday November 05, 2023 @03:08PM (#38155107)
Well I actually came up with it on the spot. Just think of the venn diagram, and add the areas of A and B, which counts A^B twice, and then just remove it twice. :)
Re: by dvt on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:55AM (#38152896)
> By that argument, conjunction is also called "addition". Perhaps there's a different reason?

A chain of conjunctions doesn't necessarily guarantee the truth value of the first proposition being preserved, so we have the much less interesting:

    A ⊬ ((A ∧ B) ∧ C) ... ∧ n
Re: by cubefox on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:45PM (#38153468)
> By that argument, conjunction is also called "addition".

Yeah, I just noticed:

a and b = a + b - (a or b)

Or with probability

P(a and b) = P(a) + P(b) - P(a or b)

Re: by moritzwarhier on Sunday November 05, 2023 @08:47AM (#38151068)
Is there a way to express OR (not XOR) using integer arithmetic without case distinction or special functions in the natural numbers mod 2?

Meaning, using only elementary arithmetic and modulo?

Seems like there should be either an obvious answer or an interesting one :)

Re: by 201p on Sunday November 05, 2023 @08:51AM (#38151103)
The maximum function.
Re: by moritzwarhier on Sunday November 05, 2023 @08:57AM (#38151143)
Yeah that makes sense of course. Should have specified "special function", was aiming at "algebraic" or "polynomial" I guess.

Then the answer seems to be no, right?

Edit: The abs() function seems to be enough, awesome:

https://math.stackexchange.com/a/1641271

Re: by adrian_b on Sunday November 05, 2023 @09:29AM (#38151423)
The abs function works because it is equal to the maximum of x and -x.

The logical "and" and logical "or" functions are precisely particular cases of the minimum and maximum functions.

The so-called "exclusive or" function is simultaneously a particular case of addition and of subtraction, i.e. addition modulo 2 and subtraction modulo 2 are the same function. Therefore applying the 4 functions minimum, maximum, addition and subtraction to 1-bit numbers produces only 3 functions, AND, OR and XOR.

It makes no sense to search other functions for expressing logical "and" and logical "or" except for minimum and maximum, because this is what they are. The search could only find alternative more complicated ways to express minimum and maximum.

The minimum and maximum functions also work in logic systems with more than 2 values of truth. Also in hardware, analog circuits for minimum and maximum are one of the 2 ways of implementing the logical "and" and "or" functions, the other way being with series and parallel connections.

The main mistake of George Boole was his unsuccessful attempt to find an equivalence between logical "and" and "or" and integer multiplication and addition, because he was not habituated to use minimum and maximum, so he did not see the correct relationships.

The functions maximum and minimum are arithmetic functions as important as addition and subtraction. The only reason for which they have not been counted among the basic arithmetic functions is because when computed by a human they required much less effort than even addition, so there was no need for a long training of how to do computations with them, like for the more complex arithmetic functions.

Most modern instruction-set architectures now include maximum and minimum instructions, together with the addition and subtraction instructions.

Re: by moritzwarhier on Sunday November 05, 2023 @09:42AM (#38151527)
That makes sense, thank you for your great reply.

As someone without much mathematical ropes, this might also be related to non-integer algebra and the distinction of "smooth" (edit: or differentiable) and discontinuous functions, no?

> The functions maximum and minimum are arithmetic functions as important as addition and subtraction. The only reason for which they have not been counted among the basic arithmetic functions is because when computed by a human they required much less effort than even addition

Re: by adrian_b on Sunday November 05, 2023 @10:09AM (#38151758)
As I have mentioned, in the logic systems with 3 or more discrete values of truth (e.g. false, unknown and true, or false, unlikely, unknown, likely and true) and also in the logic systems with a continuous range of truth values (e.g. those based on probabilities), to the base logic functions AND, OR and NOT, correspond the base logic functions minimum, maximum and inversion a.k.a. reflection functions (the last may be e.g. integer negation when the truth values are symmetric around zero, or it may be e.g. 1-x when the truth values are between 0 and 1).

A set with minimum and maximum operations has a special algebraic structure named distributive lattice, which is a structure as useful and frequently encountered as structures like the algebraic groups and rings that characterize addition-like and multiplication-like operations.

Re: by cubefox on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:19PM (#38153889)
It's interesting that maximum/minimum for disjunction/conjunction doesn't apply for probabilities, except when the probabilities "overlap as much as possible" (when at least one implies the other).

And when the probabilities overlap as little as possible, then the formulas are:

P(a or b) = min(1, P(A)+P(B))

P(a and b) = max(0, P(a)+P(b)-1)

I guess there is some lesson about logic and truth here, but I can't quite see it...

Re: by skrebbel on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:30AM (#38152590)
I really enjoyed reading this comment, thanks. I love the reason why min/max aren’t thought of as basic arithmetic building blocks (they’re too easy), it makes so much sense now you put it that way.
Re: by thaumasiotes on Sunday November 05, 2023 @09:13AM (#38151278)
The maximum function isn't elementary arithmetic or modulo. You can define it as a limit, but people are unlikely to be convinced that that's a simple, elementary function.
Re: by adrian_b on Sunday November 05, 2023 @09:43AM (#38151538)
By the sense of the word "elementary", the maximum and minimum functions are exactly as elementary as addition and subtraction.

Most textbooks define a set of elementary functions which does not include maximum and minimum only because they use "elementary" as an abbreviation for "elementary and differentiable", and they do not bother to explain this to the students.

Re: by xigoi on Sunday November 05, 2023 @09:46AM (#38151566)
a + b + a * b
Re: by moritzwarhier on Sunday November 05, 2023 @10:03AM (#38151708)
This is the obvious solution I was looking for. Thanks! (and I rightfully feel stupid now)
Re: by cubefox on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:54AM (#38152883)
The formula is slightly wrong though. This is the right one:

a or b = a + b - (a * b)

The last term is equivalent to a conjunction. Which also makes sense when you think of probability:

P(a or b) = P(a) + P(b) - P(a and b)

Re: by moritzwarhier on Sunday November 05, 2023 @12:19PM (#38153184)
Awesome, thanks!

I've seen this formula I think, and for mod 2 addition, there is no difference I guess.

Re: by xigoi on Sunday November 05, 2023 @01:38PM (#38154128)
True, but in modulo 2, + and - are the same. I chose the + to keep the formula simple.
Re: by layer8 on Sunday November 05, 2023 @11:01AM (#38152269)
OR still forms a semiring with AND, and that semiring operation is still called addition. OR is also like addition in saturation arithmetics. In those senses, it’s an additive operation, and it is indeed called logical addition:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_disjunction

https://mathworld.wolfram.com/deMorgansDualityLaw.html