News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:"I couldn't move for a postdoc. Fellowship reviewers pena... by lolinder on Friday November 03, 2023 @11:35PM (#38137921)
You're drawing a weird distinction here—"it's not about the law, it's about limiting liability should we end up in a lawsuit."

Yeah, the law doesn't require avoiding asking specific types of questions, but big tech lawyers recommend being careful because knowing that information can expose you to potential legal liability. The decision to limit how much you know about a candidate's background is a direct side effect of the law and its application, even if the law itself doesn't say you can't know this stuff.

Re:"I couldn't move for a postdoc. Fellowship reviewers pena... by pfannkuchen on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:17AM (#38138368)
I think it’s a very relevant distinction targeted at this statement from GP:

“universities behave as if employment discrimination laws don't exist. At least they're starting to be held accountable”

This seems to be suggesting that they are violating employment discrimination laws, but that the laws so far have not been enforced perfectly.

I think parent is saying that they are not violating employment discrimination laws, they are just less paranoid about accidentally violating them than FAANG companies are.

Universities do generally have a much smaller $$$ target on their back, so it would not be too surprising if big tech is more paranoid about lawsuits than universities.

Re:"I couldn't move for a postdoc. Fellowship reviewers pena... by lolinder on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:41AM (#38138498)
Based on many anecdotes from friends and family in academia as well as many recent news reports (such as the one linked to by GP at the end of the line you quoted), I would say that universities have been violating employment discrimination laws regularly and egregiously and are only recently being held to account for it.

Big tech's methods for avoiding liability may seem silly or extreme, but they arguably also work: if you literally know nothing about someone's protected classes you cannot make decisions based on them. Academic hiring, meanwhile, seems intent on collecting as much information as possible about as many protected characteristics as possible.

Re:"I couldn't move for a postdoc. Fellowship reviewers pena... by naniwaduni on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:23AM (#38138402)
I think "hiring process inappropriately used race as a factor" sounds a lot like "they are violating employment discrimination laws, but that the laws so far have not been enforced perfectly", actually.
Re:"I couldn't move for a postdoc. Fellowship reviewers pena... by pfannkuchen on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:25AM (#38138416)
I agree with your statement, I’m strictly referring to the exchange I mentioned and not to the overall topic.
Re:"I couldn't move for a postdoc. Fellowship reviewers pena... by naniwaduni on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:36AM (#38138477)
The link to the UW case is literally at the end of the line you quoted? I would assume that poster meant for those things to be related.
Re:"I couldn't move for a postdoc. Fellowship reviewers pena... by lazyasciiart on Saturday November 04, 2023 @01:24AM (#38138409)
The “at least they are starting to be held accountable” comment literally includes a link to the story of one that was violating employment laws.
Re:"I couldn't move for a postdoc. Fellowship reviewers pena... by watwut on Saturday November 04, 2023 @04:27AM (#38139119)
It is an important distinction. Original posts implies the university is breaking the law. There is huge difference between breaking law and not doing the safestest easiest to win in court thing.
Re:"I couldn't move for a postdoc. Fellowship reviewers pena... by lolinder on Saturday November 04, 2023 @11:33AM (#38141983)
The original post doesn't just imply that universities are breaking the law, it links to a post by a university where they acknowledge they were breaking the law:

> The review was completed in September and indicates that race was inappropriately considered and used in a way that is inconsistent with University policy in the hiring process for an assistant professor position in the department. Race was inappropriately considered in the hiring process even after some faculty received guidance from College of Arts & Sciences and University leadership that such considerations are inappropriate.

So in this case the distinction is meaningless because the GP was literally saying "big tech has tons of barriers up in place, but universities seem not to care very much until someone actually calls them out for breaking the law".