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Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by akoboldfrying on Friday October 27, 2023 @11:02PM (#38046687)
I guess we disagree on whether advertising goods and services to people should be considered a crime.
Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by matheusmoreira on Friday October 27, 2023 @11:16PM (#38046784)
We do. I think advertising of all kinds should be illegal. I consider it to be a form of mind rape when they forcibly insert their brands and products into my mind without my consent.
Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by akoboldfrying on Saturday October 28, 2023 @12:20AM (#38047106)
> mind rape

I'll bite. Is hearing or seeing any idea that you have not previously consented to likewise mind rape?

If not, where do you personally draw the line? And, just as importantly, who do you feel should get to decide in the general case?

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by civilitty on Saturday October 28, 2023 @12:38AM (#38047190)
> Is hearing or seeing any idea that you have not previously consented to likewise mind rape?

I'll bite: yes. If you show me images of goatse or mutilated bodies in a war zone without my consent that’s mind rape. Same with bring politics forcibly into the workplace, showing Fox news at the bbq joint while I’m trying to eat or at the gym while I’m trying to exercise, or screaming at me in protest while I’m trying to access family planning services. Whether its appropriate or not depends on set and setting.

Just like women have the right to walk the streets in whatever attire they damn well please without getting raped, I have the right to experience the world without constantly being bombarded by commercial and political mind rape.

> If not, where do you personally draw the line? And, just as importantly, who do you feel should get to decide in the general case?

Consent. Is that such a hard line to understand? If you want to challenge peoples viewpoints go to college or start a poker night with a bunch of philosophically diverse neighbors who like to argue politics. If you want to shove ads down everyones throat, go join an influencer support group.

Everyone else deserves to live free from constant mental assault.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by matheusmoreira on Saturday October 28, 2023 @12:54AM (#38047253)
> I have the right to experience the world without constantly being bombarded by commercial and political mind rape.

Exactly. Our minds are sacred.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by akoboldfrying on Saturday October 28, 2023 @07:37AM (#38049023)
>Just like women have the right to walk down the street in whatever clothing they want without getting raped

Do men, and lesbian and bisexual women, have the right to walk down the street without seeing a woman dressed in a way they find distracting?

I think you will say that they have no such right. But if so: What makes this form of attention-grabbing behaviour (wearing a skimpy dress) acceptable, and the other form (advertising) unacceptable?

This example highlights that (a) we are, in fact, capable of managing distractions to quite some degree, and (b) in both cases there is another party involved whose interests oppose our own, but whose rights nevertheless also need to be considered.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by dcow on Saturday October 28, 2023 @12:46AM (#38047220)
So, I think there’s a massive difference between ads in de-facto public spaces where consent is impossible, and ads in an environment where there’s full affirmative consent.

Billboards on a highway: mind rape.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by matheusmoreira on Saturday October 28, 2023 @12:50AM (#38047234)
Not at all. I draw the line at consent. Nothing wrong with HN showing me your comments. I came here to see comments. If they started showing up while I'm watching a video somewhere else I would feel violated and swiftly block them. Nothing wrong with showing me products when I open a store app. That's what I opened the app to see. Showing me products while I'm trying to read an article is a violation.

Advertising is by definition noise. Superfluous. Information I did not ask for. Irrelevant stuff that someone paid money to put in front of me. Information I explicitly ask for is not advertising, it's simply information.

My cognitive functions are inalienable, they are not theirs to sell to the highest bidder, nor are they currency to pay for services with. I have attention deficit disorder. It's hard enough for me to focus without these corporations trying to grab my attention. I consider their attempts to do so a violation of my personal integrity. I consider ad blocking to be justified self-defense. I will literally do everything in my power to avoid looking at ads.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by seabass-labrax on Saturday October 28, 2023 @03:53AM (#38048025)
Most online advertisements are as intrusive from a mental attention perspective as a door-to-door salesman is intrusive from a personal space perspective. Yet, the former is somehow considered acceptable even in societies where the latter is completely taboo.

I always try to make sure my online contributions are worthy of the valuable attention of their readers they take up.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by superdug on Saturday October 28, 2023 @01:15AM (#38047353)
Therein lies the rub (or more precisely the problem) advertising at its core does _NOT_ have to be evil. Taking into account that the onus of every advertisement is to entice you to do something that you may have otherwise not considered we still do not negate the need for an advertisement to be evil. Now, you may very well be enticed to do something that is not in absolutely everyone’s best interests in mind, which does indeed qualify as evil. And I believe we agree that there are far too many advertisements prevalent that are indeed evil when referring specifically towards advertisements on a digital medium. So I think that the argument is valid that ending all advertising would ultimately prevent all evil advertising it would also prevent any not evil advertising from ever happening as well. Now again, that may be perfectly acceptable to you, your argument that advertising should not happen at all isn’t really practical for absolutely everyone who does or doesn’t support your absolute opinion on advertisements, as contrary to you, but they want you to simply affirm that their opinion is not absolutely based on them supporting the evil ads that you both abhor.
Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by matheusmoreira on Saturday October 28, 2023 @01:31AM (#38047422)
I'm not sure what your point is but I'll respond to this:

> advertising at its core does _NOT_ have to be evil

Advertising has inherent and irreconciliable conflicts of interest that make it worthless to any rational person. They're trying to sell you stuff, it's literally guaranteed that they will be overstating the pros and downplaying the cons. When you want to make an informed decision, the last person you want to listen to is the advertiser. You want to listen to people you personally trust or independent third parties, not the seller who has every incentive in the world to lie to you.

Therefore the existence of advertising is incompatible with a rational society. There is no such thing as "non-evil" advertising. It doesn't inform anyone. On the contrary: it is disinformation, inherently untrustworthy.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by superdug on Saturday October 28, 2023 @02:50AM (#38047739)
But again, why is selling stuff abhorred by you as an absolute. A transaction which is facilitated by money is the key component to guaranteed assertion that a single valued skill can be exercised for any good or service at any time so long as everyone agrees that the compensation is fair and reasonable by all concerned parties. It’s one of fundamental components of an interdependent system that furthers the entire race at the same time and regulates itself to follow the current definition of justice needed to ensure continued success of all parties involved. As progress moves forward so then does the equality shared benefit of a longer and more fulfilling existence than would have otherwise been impossible.
Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by matheusmoreira on Saturday October 28, 2023 @02:56AM (#38047770)
I have no problem with buying and selling stuff or with transacting in general. I have a problem trusting sellers. I refuse to take them at their word. I do not want to hear what they have to say at all. I want to decide what I want to buy based on completely independent factors and then, after I have decided, come to the seller to finalize the purchase. I do not want or need advertising, I need its antithesis: quality, trustworthy information.
Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by superdug on Saturday October 28, 2023 @03:21AM (#38047881)
But again, why can’t one of the factors be advertising first followed by due diligence before finalization? Especially in the instance of stated facts that can be fairly easily verified by anyone’s personal definition of a trusted source, most especially when presented with simply an incentive to use a stored resource that neither you or any of your trusted sources of truth were even aware existed at all to begin with? Again with specificity at advertisements on a digital medium where there is an enticement to spend money suggested by a third party and they are not evil?
Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by matheusmoreira on Saturday October 28, 2023 @12:31PM (#38051116)
> why can’t one of the factors be advertising first followed by due diligence before finalization?

Because I don't consent to it. I don't want it. That's all the justification necessary. They violate my boundaries despite the fact I say no.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by superdug on Saturday October 28, 2023 @01:01PM (#38051440)
But how is it beneficial to those who don’t feel violated beyond the point of absolute necessity to always refuse consent because not every advertisement is guaranteed by nature to always be evil and have not yet come to a similar conclusion as yours as they believe that advertisement as a whole on a digital medium specifically in regards to transactions on a monetary level has not yet met their personal defined level of it being ultimately net evil. And therefore feel arguing against a ban of the practice entirely is not currently the most pressing issue with advertising that you keep telling them, their argument holds no merit, which lends itself to the personal assumption that what they are doing is ultimately wrong and therefore they should feel ashamed for it. They are not currently experiencing a feeling of guilt or shame about expressing their opinion and you are insisting, but not projecting, that they should. Ultimately this devolves into a basic summation of simply having their feelings hurt and wanting you to stop arguing your point, as you both actually understand each each other and can therefore continue this civil discussion we’re having and all continually agree that ultimately our shared responsibility society is working and we are still progressing despite the challenges.
Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by yjftsjthsd-h on Saturday October 28, 2023 @02:02AM (#38047538)
> Therein lies the rub (or more precisely the problem) advertising at its core does _NOT_ have to be evil.

Interestingly, I agree that it doesn't have to be evil, but in practice it is, so close to 100% of the time that the exceptions are actually not worth discussing.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by superdug on Saturday October 28, 2023 @02:53AM (#38047748)
That’s not an invalid personal opinion but does not make it true for absolutely everyone else at the same time.
Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by lelanthran on Saturday October 28, 2023 @05:07AM (#38048327)
> I consider it to be a form of mind rape when they forcibly insert their brands and products into my mind without my consent.

We aren't talking about a Clockwork Orange type of scneario. You're trivialising real rape when you refer to easily avoidable online-advertising.

Your mind "rape" is in no way or form analogous to rape.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by matheusmoreira on Saturday October 28, 2023 @11:00AM (#38050312)
Rape is violation of the body without consent. My mind is part of my body. I feel violated.
Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by lelanthran on Saturday October 28, 2023 @12:19PM (#38050990)
> Rape is violation of the body without consent.

No, it isn't. It's defined in terms of penetration. Both legal definitions and dictionary definitions.

If your argument depends on a word having a different meaning from the dictionary definition, it's your argument that is wrong, not the dictionary.

> My mind is part of my body. I feel violated.

Violation is not rape.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by matheusmoreira on Saturday October 28, 2023 @12:27PM (#38051059)
We're arguing dictionary definitions now?

> define rape

> The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.

> "the rape of Europa by Zeus."

> The act of pillaging or plundering.

> "the rape of the city by the invaders."

> Abusive or improper treatment; spoiling or abuse.

> "the rape of the land by polluters."

Who knows? Maybe one day there'll be a "rape of the mind" dictionary entry in there.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by lelanthran on Saturday October 28, 2023 @02:04PM (#38052020)
> Who knows? Maybe one day there'll be a "rape of the mind" dictionary entry in there.

Well, when there is you can claim your argument doesn't trivialise rape. Until then your claim is baseless.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by matheusmoreira on Saturday October 28, 2023 @05:42PM (#38053664)
> Abusive or improper treatment; spoiling or abuse.

Seems to fit well for my intended purpose. I see no reason to avoid using the word.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by account42 on Monday October 30, 2023 @06:45AM (#38067784)
> We aren't talking about a Clockwork Orange type of scneario.

But we are.

Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by maxbond on Sunday October 29, 2023 @01:43AM (#38056067)
Can we call it nonconsensual ideation? Maybe that can be workshopped into something less wordy? Mind rape is too off-putting to generate good discussion, imho.
Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by SoftTalker on Friday October 27, 2023 @11:11PM (#38046748)
Advertising no. Tracking individuals and building profiles about them across the web, much less clear, probably yes.
Re:Shadow: New browser engine made almost entirely in JavaSc... by akoboldfrying on Saturday October 28, 2023 @12:30AM (#38047150)
I feel similarly, though I also think that, provided the intent to track and profile-build is made clear to users up-front before they opt in to using something, the onus shifts to them (the user).

(OTOH if that intention is conveyed in p. 37 of an EULA in dense legalese, it seems clearly designed to swamp the user. I'd like to see a lot more attention paid to this in legal circles.)