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Re:Advice to a Novice Programmer by pavel_lishin on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @02:00PM (#38015968)
I don't think he was shitting on command line tools; he was shitting on the remote machine his child was having to use, which was slow and unreliable.

> Also big disagree on the final statement of the article. CS is not a vocational major, nor should it be. There are plenty of good post-secondary schools that focus on writing code and the tools you use to do so; CS curricula should not be focused on producing programmers, it should be focused on producing computer scientists. The recent insistence that we turn CS programs into job-mills is one of the big reasons for declining quality in my opinion, my local university CS program was recently told to "push more people through" and to make the curriculum "less theoretical" and more "career oriented". If you want that kind of stuff, go to a career college.

Colleges should make this distinction clearer as well. I got a CS degree, and my belief was that I was being taught how to become a software engineer.

Re:Advice to a Novice Programmer by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @02:28PM (#38016383)
This. Software engineering needs to be a separate field from CS, as mechanical engineering is a separate field from physics.

But maybe it's good that you were taught how to become a software engineer. My guess is that 90-95% of CS grads will actually work as software engineers.

But, a question if I may: How good of a software engineering training was the CS degree? Would a real software engineering degree have done a better job?

Re:Advice to a Novice Programmer by pavel_lishin on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @02:56PM (#38016789)
> But, a question if I may: How good of a software engineering training was the CS degree? Would a real software engineering degree have done a better job?

In my opinion, it was pretty bad. We didn't get to write much code after CS 101, and we only had one group project in a class that I cannot remember - so there wasn't much opportunity to learn how to develop in a collaborative environment.

What this meant for me is that I learned on the job, and my first job was at a very small PHP/JS shop where I learned some very bad habits that I didn't know were bad habits at the time.

I think a software engineering degree would have been significantly more useful, and I don't think the CS portion of it would have had to suffer much. I think the college even offered that degree at the time; I'm not sure why I didn't switch.

Re:Advice to a Novice Programmer by glitchc on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @04:41PM (#38018078)
Software engineer training without engineering training is just programming training. Doing a CS degree does not automatically entitle one to call themselves an engineer. You're a programmer, not an engineer.
Re:Advice to a Novice Programmer by serialNumber on Thursday October 26, 2023 @11:17AM (#38026716)
This discussion has been hashed out many a time. While they may not be an engineer by designation (PEng), the word is used often enough to refer to programmers that it is pedantic to reiterate the fact that they aren't "real" engineers.
Re:Advice to a Novice Programmer by kazinator on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @04:47PM (#38018151)
> I don't think he was shitting on command line tools

Yes he is; he put "You can't do good work with bad tools" in bold.

Re:Advice to a Novice Programmer by lmz on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @06:42PM (#38019278)
Well you'd find it hard to do good work with a hammer made from cardboard but that doesn't mean all hammers are bad.