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Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by logicchains on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @07:58AM (#37997852)
>What I don’t understand, how is it considered resistance

Imagine if Russia manages to annex most of Ukraine, and converts the rest of Ukraine into an open-air prison. If twenty years later the people in that part of Ukraine manage to gather weapons and launch a counter-attack on Russia, wouldn't that count as resistance?

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by mensetmanusman on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:38AM (#37998294)
This analogy fails because it would require Poland to also close their border.

Gaza is essentially half controlled by Egypt.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by bawolff on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:09AM (#37997977)
You have to imagine very hard to consider gaza to have been annexed. You could make an argument for "occupied" (although that in itself is debatable post 2005), but "annexed" does not make sense.

For those not familiar with background context of why i say post-2005, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_G...

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by logicchains on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:40AM (#37998307)
>You have to imagine very hard to consider gaza to have been annexed

Israel didn't annex Gaza, it (via the UK) annexed Palestine upon its creation, with Gaza and the West Bank being the land that remains un-annexed.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by bawolff on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:45AM (#37999109)
That makes even less sense.

To annex something means to add it to an existing state. Israel by definition can't annex something before it exists.

The UK controlled the area at the time, but they basically gave up and left. I don't understand how you could say they were annexing it at this point in time either.

Israel is closer to being a succesor state to mandatory palestine than anything else. Generally international law recognizes the right for ethnic groups to self-determination (Palestinians often rightly complain that they effectively have not had this in the modern period, but the right applies to both sides). It is not considered annexation for a group from one state to split off and form a new state via self-determination.

To give a comparison, i think your argument would be the equivalent of saying ukraine annexed russia because they unilaterally left soviet union.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by lmm on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @11:04PM (#38008670)
> Israel by definition can't annex something before it exists.

That seems like a purely semantic argument. If a bunch of people from a particular political movement show up somewhere and seize a bunch of land and declare it's part of their nation, whether that nation is completely new or existing doesn't change the morality of that anywhere. E.g. the formation of South Ossetia on Georgian territory is widely recognised as either annexation or something morally equivalent to it.

> Generally international law recognizes the right for ethnic groups to self-determination (Palestinians often rightly complain that they effectively have not had this in the modern period, but the right applies to both sides). It is not considered annexation for a group from one state to split off and form a new state via self-determination.

That's arguably true for people who declare independence in the territory they're already living in. Not for people who settle on someone else's territory and then claim it as theirs.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by bawolff on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @01:38AM (#38009508)
> E.g. the formation of South Ossetia on Georgian territory is widely recognised as either annexation or something morally equivalent to it.

I'm under the impression it is seen as occupation (not annexation) by russia with a thin vaneer over top. You still have a separate state being involved, with russia arguably continuing to be in control.

> That's arguably true for people who declare independence in the territory they're already living in. Not for people who settle on someone else's territory and then claim it as theirs.

Well there was significant migration to the area in the lead up, its not like the jews just showed up in 1948 and declared independence. From what i understand there was a continous jewish presence in the region throughout history, albeit at various point as a much smaller minority.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by lmm on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @01:57AM (#38009606)
> its not like the jews just showed up in 1948 and declared independence

AIUI it pretty much was; yes the zionist movement existed to a certain extent before WW2, but the overwhelming majority of jewish people living on the territory of Palestine in 1948 had moved there at most a few years before (with a huge increase in those who felt the desire or need to move there as persecution escalated in Europe in the 1930s and ultimately lead to the holocaust).

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by bawolff on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @03:11AM (#38010084)
It seems like firm numbers are pretty hard to find, but wikipedia suggests there was significant jewish population concentrated in Jerusalem, even in the early 1500s (about 20% of the city) with conflicting reports of them becoming a plurality in the mid 1800s. (Arguably that's cherrypicking a single city)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusal...

There's certainly reasons one could doubt the number in absolute terms, there was certainly nothing like a modern census, but i think its more than enough to counter the narrative that there were no jews there right up until just before 1948.

To be clear not saying the jewish population didn't significantly expand in the 40's, it clearly did (at the same time many of those were basically forced from their previous homes, which i don't think fits with the "colonist" metaphor as that usually implies more choice), just that there were always jews in the region.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by lmm on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @05:26PM (#38018611)
> at the same time many of those were basically forced from their previous homes, which i don't think fits with the "colonist" metaphor as that usually implies more choice

AIUI colonists usually tend to be at least partly fleeing bad situations at home - occasionally nothing more than a lack of opportunity, but often debts, criminal records and the like.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by BlueTemplar on Friday October 27, 2023 @06:43AM (#38036865)
Weren't the Puritans persecuted in the UK ?

Australia was literally a penal colony.

(Of course this probably doesn't apply to all colonies, I wonder if those that started as trade depots fare differently ?)

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by wsgeorge on Thursday October 26, 2023 @05:52PM (#38032175)
> show up somewhere and seize a bunch of land and declare it's part of their nation

This is the root of your confusion. A bunch of people didn't just "show up somewhere and seize a bunch of land". This bunch of people were steadily migrating and acquiring land legally. The only real "seizure" happened within the context of war caused by their growing, legal presence on the land.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by BlueTemplar on Friday October 27, 2023 @06:40AM (#38036850)
This is the crux of the issue, isn't it ?

If I am not mistaken, the first colonies in the USA also "legally" acquired land ? (In the sense that the natives agreed to their presence.)

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by lmm on Sunday October 29, 2023 @06:20PM (#38063425)
> A bunch of people didn't just "show up somewhere and seize a bunch of land". This bunch of people were steadily migrating and acquiring land legally.

Really? My grandfather talked about having to intercept or shoot the boatloads that were arriving illegally, and not being able to catch them all, and a quick look into the history seems to back that up.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by dash2 on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:56AM (#37998529)
I cannot believe I have to say this. No, beheading children and torturing them in front of their parents is not a "counter-attack", nor is it "resistance". This statement is actively evil.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by logicchains on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:14AM (#37998745)
>No, beheading children and torturing them in front of their parents

There's absolutely no evidence this happened.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by _kbh_ on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @08:40AM (#38012142)
> There's absolutely no evidence this happened.

There's evidence that Hamas beheaded children I haven't seen any evidence they tortured them infant of their parents.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by coolThingsFirst on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @05:06AM (#38010794)
Right and Israel bombing civilian dense Gaza is passively evil?

Bombs are brutal.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by BlueTemplar on Friday October 27, 2023 @06:33AM (#38036816)
One does not preclude the other. This is not a Hollywood movie, the Resistance fighting against the Empire are more likely to commit atrocities, not less (because they are in a position of weakness).

I am reminded of the colonization of the USA : some of the Native American tribes were infamous for their atrocities (if I am not mistaken, ramped up against the colonists compared to what they usually did in war ?).

Of course in the long term the Resistance committing atrocities only hurts their own cause : it gives a justification for the Empire to commit genocide.

We will see whether Israel will take the opportunity, or will only leave genocide as a publicly made promise - note also that under the current situation, genocide is going to happen by sheer neglect if a significant fraction of the needed humanitarian aid is not let in.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by xdennis on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:57AM (#37998544)
Your analogy is wrong because Jews were there before Arabs.

It's like saying that Cherokee would be colonizers if they moved to North Carolina, which is their original homeland before they were forced to move to Oklahoma (the Trail of Tears).

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by Thiez on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:35AM (#37998987)
I suppose you refer to the relatively short period that Israel existed almost 3000 years ago? And we're just conveniently forgetting about all the people who lived there before and after that?
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by cheeseomlit on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:34AM (#37998968)
Weren't the Philistines in the old testament the ancestors of the Palestinians? Meaning they were there first presumably, since the Israelites had to fight them to take the region in the first place
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by dgfitz on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @10:43AM (#37999834)
My (possibly incorrect) understanding is that this goes all the way back to Jacob and Esau, if one considers the Bible as purely a historical reference and not a religious text.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @12:48PM (#38001798)
Of course not. Their ancestors are Egyptians and Algerians who came to work for the British between 1919-1947.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by xdennis on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @01:56PM (#38002769)
The Philistines settled in a small part of modern Israel at around 1175 BC, and disappeared (were assimilated) by the 5th century BC.

Roman Judea was renamed to Palestine in 135 AD (after the Philistines) by the Romans after numerous revolts by the Jews attempting to overthrow their colonizers.

It was freed from Roman colonialism in 634 AD... by being colonized by Arabs. Many empires colonized it afterwards, the last being the British.

Most of today's Israelis are from Muslim countries, some are from Europe, and the rest never left. But many of Arabs of the land (which have adopted the name Palestinians after the province, not the people) are from neighboring countries.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by hef19898 on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @02:11PM (#38003009)
So we can go back to antiquity to make territorial claims? Hell, better not tell that the Persians, Romans and Mongols! Or the British... Maybe Macedonia wants another shot at conquering India so, who knows?
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by toyg on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @03:34AM (#38010234)
When you have to go back 1300 years to justify an apartheid regime, maybe you should ask yourself a few questions.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by psd1 on Thursday October 26, 2023 @03:35AM (#38022814)
Or... when you have to go back 1300 years to shed light on a complex issue, naive people should consider that they might not fully grasp the basis of the conflict
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by toyg on Thursday October 26, 2023 @04:29AM (#38023151)
That's a classic handwave to avoid going into the fundamental merit of the problem: which is that, based on claims that were last valid more than 1000 years before, a fundamentally-theological apartheid state was installed and then supported with brutal force, pursuing a slow but methodical ethnic cleansing of the land. Unlike similar efforts in previous centuries (i.e. the purge of Native Americans, Aboriginal Australians, or pre-Colombian South Americans), the Israeli effort doesn't even have the excuse of philosophical immaturity of the mainstream: it was pursued well after the post-colonial fundamentals had already been established between WWI and WWII. These are hard facts, no matter how you spin who started what in which year.

The sad thing is, there is now, realistically, no way out of the current situation that involves reconciliation - that chance was missed in the last century. The animosity is now likely unsurmountable, the military disparity is entrenched for good, and a sustainable resolution can only involve the complete purge of Gaza and West Bank. Israeli citizens have chosen to belong to another nationalistic ethnostate, right when the Western mainstream started to move towards more modern and inclusive models of statehood - ironically, on the example of Israel's best ally. As such, they are busy repeating all the sins such states have been guilty of during less enlightened ages.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by psd1 on Thursday October 26, 2023 @05:37AM (#38023550)
> a fundamentally-theological apartheid state was installed and then supported with brutal force

This is also a handwave.

Minor quibble over "theological" - I think "tribal" would fit better. Humans are a funny animal.

The chance for peace was extremely slim. It's been an existential conflict since before 1948, and Camp David's alternative required that the doves on both sides be stronger than the hawks. Unfortunately, there's an asymmetry there.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by toyg on Thursday October 26, 2023 @09:24AM (#38025187)
>> a fundamentally-theological apartheid state was installed and then supported with brutal force

> This is also a handwave.

No, that's a statement of fact. It's been almost 80 years since the founding of Israel, its overall historical trajectory is not really in question anymore. Election after election, these choices have been made for three generations; the ideological scenario is entrenched for good. It's sad but it is what it is.

> Minor quibble over "theological" - I think "tribal" would fit better.

I could agree there, but it's a fine line. There is a religious symbol on the very flag.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by BlueTemplar on Friday October 27, 2023 @06:55AM (#38036944)
There's nothing wrong with "nationalistic ethnostates", that's just a weird way to say "nation" (ethnicity is fractal).

The problem is the countries that are empires : where non-national ethnicities are subjects. This includes Israel because of its control of Cisjordania and, yes, also the USA (though to be fair, there's hardly anything left of the Native Americans, and as you say, they get the excuse of immaturity).

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by zen_1 on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:22AM (#37998836)
That hasn't been true since Hadrian
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by barsonme on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @04:23AM (#38010545)
It is never acceptable, under any circumstances, to wholesale slaughter, rape, torture, and desecrate innocent civilians.

Pick a fight with the government, not senior citizens at a bus stop.

What Hamas did on 7 October wasn’t a “counter-attack,” it was literal genocide.