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Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by badpun on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @09:08AM (#37914391)
> The right not to preventably and painfully die should be unconditional.

Take it up with the creator of the Universe, as those are the rules they've chosen - valueable things, such as food, heat or shelter, do not just materialize in front of people out of thin air. They need to be grown or made, and it requires work.

Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by dohaeris on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @09:16AM (#37914509)
You clearly didn’t read my argument. What you describe is exactly how it works in a state of nature, but in a state of nature there are no rules. You don’t have to obey anyone’s so-called “property rights.” You can just spear the people you don’t like. I personally don’t want to live (would probably die) that way, but if society is going to impose rules on us, it needs to offer something better than the state of nature. Right now it really doesn’t; it has 100 times the resources but offers only artificial scarcity and make-work to keep the wagecucks in line.
Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by badpun on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @09:28AM (#37914714)
Society is better because it offers you comfortable living in exchange for some work. In the state of nature you'd likely already be dead, so that's a huge improvement.

Also, how is the current scarcity artificial? Are we limiting the output somehow? Could we for example produce much more cheap food, but we don't, in order to keep the proles scared?

Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by randomdata on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @09:48AM (#37915014)
> Are we limiting the output somehow?

He is saying that we limit his inputs. He wants to, for example, be able to produce his own food as to not have to rely on deals made with other people to acquire food, but notes that society carefully controls who has power over the land that is able to support that production, leaving nowhere for him to do so, and leaving him at the mercy of being able to reach agreements with others – others who may not want to make an agreement with him – in order to eat.

He says that without a strong society he could push anyone standing in his way of the land aside (by brutal force, if necessary), but an entire society standing in his way is a force too great. As such, he believes that great force should provide suitable compensation for the restrictions it imposes (e.g. if you aren't permitted access to land to produce your own food, you should be guaranteed access to food by some other means).

Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by badpun on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @12:27PM (#37917588)
The assumption that, in a lawless society scenario, he'd essentially win the fight over the land (against other people who also want it) is very optimistic.
Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by randomdata on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @01:10PM (#37918197)
He asserted a society, not necessarily a rule of law. Law formalizes a direction for society, but society can also function in a more ad-hoc manner. If an individual does not have any meaningful kind of society behind him, however, defending tens of thousands of acres like a farmer in a society can is likely impossible.
Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by DrThunder on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @10:04AM (#37915232)
"You don’t have to obey anyone’s so-called “property rights.”"

You don't have to obey them now either, but don't come crying to us when someone kills you for trying to take it just like they would have if you tried to come in and take over some tribe's land in the past.

The only difference now is that you might get the luxury of just going to court or jail.

Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by momirlan on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @01:29PM (#37918493)
if you were a wolf and trespassed another pack's territory, they would kill you. there are rules and "property" in nature - where do you think ours came from ?
Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by catchnear4321 on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @09:20AM (#37914585)
everyone understands the base rules. you aren’t doing anything more than rudely restating the current state of things.

if you don’t want a replicator, that’s fine. just get out of the way please. there’s work to be done.

Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by badpun on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @09:33AM (#37914784)
The OP's stance was that the right for people to have essential stuff for free should be granted NOW, not in some hypothetical future scenario.
Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by catchnear4321 on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @09:57AM (#37915121)
so as immediate is impossible, what’s the next step?

to grit one’s teeth?

Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by badpun on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @12:23PM (#37917527)
I did not consider what's the next step, as that wasn't the subject of discussion.
Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by catchnear4321 on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @01:21PM (#37918372)
so there is the gap.

you think them unrelated.

Re:Working in Silicon Valley was fun. Now it's just another ... by badpun on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @03:23PM (#37920273)
I just don't think there's anything in particular that we could we doing that we aren't doing already. It's not like the whole capitalist enterprise is not working towards maximizing efficiency across the board. This might eventually, at some people in the future, bring us genuine abundancy. The point is, we're working on it already.