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Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by cjensen on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:16PM (#37860818)
The Library of Congress has a great film taken from the front of a cable car in pre-fire San Francisco [1]. It's absolutely terrifying to see how unsafe the streets were. It wasn't just cars either: horse-drawn carts dart in and out of traffic just as cars did, pedestrians cross at-will in front of all vehicles, and at one points kids mess about jumping on the back of vehicles.

It's obvious major regulation was needed, and not just for pedestrians. Pretend cars didn't exist on that street for a moment and think about the changes needed to make it safe: carts needed lanes and rules for changing lanes, cable cars needed dedicated lanes, intersections needed a system to allow traffic from multiple directions, and pedestrians were being a bit too free with their judgement calls.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uINgSqEU26A

Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by mlazos on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:29PM (#37861014)
Characterizing that as terrifying is a bit hyperbolic. It looks like Europe in the present day. If cars were moving slower it would be much easier to be a pedestrian safely
Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by sudobash1 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @03:11PM (#37861687)
I was strongly reminded of the driving in Italy, except much slower (and more horses).
Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by paldepind2 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:24PM (#37860951)
Very interesting video. Thanks for sharing. It looks a bit chaotic but honestly not _that_ unsafe to me as everything is going quite slow. It reminds me a bit of the idea of "shared space" which is a recent concept that is actually claimed to make streets safer.
Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by ilaksh on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:33PM (#37861073)
I think it comes down to things like speed. If we accept that the road is a place to be able to quickly move a lot of vehicles, then that just isn't a safe place for pedestrians.

If we go back to lower speeds then maybe it could be manageable in a same way.

But as it is actually used now for 3000 pound vehicles to zoom about in, it makes no sense for pedestrians to be intersecting and sharing the space at all. Just due to the physics of collisions between a person and a vehicle. I don't think slow vehicles is a good solution because we do need to get places.

I think an actual good (but very expensive) solution is for new cities to be designed differently in several ways. One of which is for roads to be be autonomous vehicles and entirely separate from pedestrian paths. To make that reasonably practical you need some other core assumptions to be changed. And also a totally new development probably.

Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by alexfoo on Thursday October 12, 2023 @03:03PM (#37861571)
Luckily some countries don’t think about it like this. Many European countries put pedestrians first in cities and towns.

Cars can go “quickly” between cities and towns but around pedestrians they really do need to slow down.

I wouldn’t want to live anywhere where the car is king and everyone else must cede to its ultimate priority.

People need to give themselves more time to get places, rather than thinking they are far more important than the greatly decreased safety of others.

Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by pixl97 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @03:59PM (#37862384)
Cars are perfectly capable of going slow...

The American mindset is not. I swear that a huge portion of people in the US have been propagandized to believe that the car is king and that any idea to the contrary is heresy punishable by death under the front bumper of a Ford F-250 jacked up 3 feet higher.

Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by yowzadave on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:06PM (#37862495)
Bingo--this argument (like many others) is one that doesn't require us to speculate or to invent new ways of building cities. We just need to look around the world to cities that have dealt with this problem successfully, and learn from their examples.
Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by snthd on Thursday October 12, 2023 @03:39PM (#37862109)
The Dutch do road design/purpose very well, and they didn't start with a new development.

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/sustainable-sa...

https://swov.nl/system/files/publication-downloads/dv3_en_ko... (pdf)

Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by Maarten88 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @06:57PM (#37864238)
> ... new cities to be designed differently in several ways. One of which is for roads to be only for small autonomous vehicles and entirely separate ...

As I understand it, this vision does not compute. The number of movements of people in a dense city is too large for everyone to move in a car, autonomous or not. Cars take a lot of space. They need to stop someplace for someone to get in and out, merge in and out of traffic. Streets cant be designed in a way that accomodates this at the scale of a city like NY.

Similarly, in spread-out suburbia, autonomous cars would still get stuck in traffic jams if everyone has to use them to get to work. Making cars autonomous makes things a bit more efficient, but not by orders of magnitude.

Mass transit, combined with walking and biking, is simply way more efficient for moving people in cities and is a proven model that does scale.

Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by lmm on Thursday October 12, 2023 @07:05PM (#37864331)
> But as it is actually used now for 3000 pound vehicles to zoom about in, it makes no sense for pedestrians to be intersecting and sharing the space at all. Just due to the physics of collisions between a person and a vehicle. I don't think slow vehicles is a good solution because we do need to get places.

Urban design talks about street vs road. You can have places for vehicles to zoom about in (roads), and you can have places with shops and businesses and homes for people to use (streets), but you shouldn't try to make the same place serve as both. So in cities and town centres you need to prioritise pedestrians and cyclists: low (and enforced!) speed limits, narrow streets that naturally reduce speed, car-free zones. It doesn't need radical new development, you just need to break the assumption that cars are entitled to go full speed everywhere and everyone else has to deal.

Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by Animats on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:53PM (#37863040)
> It reminds me a bit of the idea of "shared space" which is a recent concept that is actually claimed to make streets safer.

It's a 1990s concept from France. It was implemented in the 1990s on Theater Way in Redwood City. CA, and did not work well. One side of the street has a curb, but the other side does not. Vehicle traffic was allowed, and people could get out in front of the movie theater. The other side of the street, with no barriers, had cafe tables.[1]

This worked badly. The cafe tables kept creeping outward. Some auto traffic was too fast. During COVID, the outside seating kept growing into the roadway. Plastic bollards were erected to discourage non-delivery traffic. Overpowered electric bikes zooming through became an problem. Police cars were sometimes deployed to block the roadway. Then plastic Jersey-type barriers were set up at one end, but not filled with water, so they could be moved for deliveries. Currently, one end of the street has been torn up for installation of some kind of raiseable barrier.

[1] https://earth.google.com/web/@37.48560402,-122.22909676,5.07...

Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by lkramer on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:34PM (#37861082)
As someone who lives and occasionally drives in London that feels like my daily life to be honest..
Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by limitedfrom on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:47PM (#37861286)
It's chaotic, but not terrifying or likely that dangerous given the speed / injury/deaths are very unlikely at such low speeds[1]. Vehicles are moving at near-walking speeds, and even with the added weight of carriages/cars, there's a lot of reaction time.

[1] https://www.propublica.org/article/unsafe-at-many-speeds

Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by freedomben on Thursday October 12, 2023 @03:14PM (#37861723)
More of a meta-comment, but somebody working with AI to upscale/enhance images/videos ought to take a crack at making that picture quality better. Would be fascinating to generate a reasonable audio track as well of what it would have sounded like, especially as cars/motors accelerate, people shout things, etc. Certainly not an easy task, but would be super cool
Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by piscisaureus on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:00PM (#37862402)
Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by freedomben on Thursday October 12, 2023 @05:39PM (#37863506)
Wow, thank you! That's amazing! Can't believe not only has it been done, but it was 3 years ago and was very popular!
Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by joshuahaglund on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:43PM (#37862923)
Looks fine to me. I think the unsafe thing is speed. Top speed of a cable car is 9.5mph. No vehicle appears to be going over 15mph. There's a cyclist pretty casually keeping pace with the cars. https://youtu.be/uINgSqEU26A?t=153

From https://aaafoundation.org/impact-speed-pedestrians-risk-seve...

"Results show that the average risk of severe injury for a pedestrian struck by a vehicle reaches 10% at an impact speed of 16 mph, 25% at 23 mph, 50% at 31 mph, 75% at 39 mph, and 90% at 46 mph. The average risk of death for a pedestrian reaches 10% at an impact speed of 23 mph, 25% at 32 mph, 50% at 42 mph, 75% at 50 mph, and 90% at 58 mph."

Slower speeds mean a collision is less likely to occur. We're pretty good at moving in crowded conditions without frequent collisions at low speeds. See also NYC sidewalks.

Also, it appears the video is slowed down. I played at 1.5 speed to make my estimates

Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by obelos on Thursday October 12, 2023 @08:15PM (#37864855)
A lot of car-centric people conflate “I don't know exactly what's about to happen next” with “danger!” What's actually dangerous is the hubristic trance people fall into when they believe they do know exactly what's about to happen next. When that happens at car speeds in a world that is inherently unpredictable, it's often deadly.
Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by doctorpangloss on Thursday October 12, 2023 @05:06PM (#37863142)
> It's absolutely terrifying... Pretend cars didn't exist on that street for a moment

You can easily experience the scenario you envision, practically average 1905 San Francisco roads, by walking or biking through JFK street in Golden Gate Park, which is closed to all vehicles but food trucks and shuttles.

It's so crazy fucking nice, fun and safe so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Re:Automakers invented the crime of jaywalking (2015) by diogenes4 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @05:18PM (#37863275)
> It's obvious major regulation was needed, and not just for pedestrians.

Wait why would your impulse be to regulate pedestrians at all? The street doesn't even seem that dangerous without high-speed vehicles.