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Re:Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to d... by dclowd9901 on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @05:23PM (#37837737)
Batteries go bad over a rather short period of time and are incredibly expensive too. They’re basically currently infeasible as a mode of transport without _a lot_ of trade offs. Compare that to a tank for fuel, which is comparatively minuscule in cost and basically never goes bad. I don’t think electrical is as scalable as liquid fuel and I’m not convinced it ever will be, especially if it’s continued to be made by exotic materials.
Re:Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to d... by theshrike79 on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @05:41PM (#37837978)
[delayed]
Re:Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to d... by elihu on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:41PM (#37838668)
I think the point the post you're replying to was making is that the gas tank itself doesn't usually go bad. It's true you can't just let gas sit in a tank forever, but with EVs it's also true that you can't usually just leave a battery to sit unused for years; eventually, it'll self-discharge below a threshold where it becomes permanently damaged.

I do agree that battery "problems" are exaggerated -- most will last a very long time, and batteries that don't use cobalt and nickel are available now. Sodium-ion might be relatively common in a few years for low-end applications.

Re:Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to d... by robertjpayne on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @05:32PM (#37837864)
Fuel definitely goes bad, at least once the storage is in vehicles. The petroleum industry keeps peddling all this FUD about how awful batteries are.

The difference is batteries can be improved (and there's a tooooon of $$$$ pouring into this problem) and they are improving. Petroleum is a dead end while batteries, solar, and electrical grids have a bright future and lost of room for growth.

Re:Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to d... by elihu on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:32PM (#37838578)
> "Batteries go bad over a rather short period of time"

Not really. They do gradually lose capacity over a long time, but it's a slow process. The US Government requires EV batteries to have an 8 year / 100,000 mile warranty, and California requires 10 years and 150,000 miles. I expect most batteries will significantly exceed that.

LFP batteries generally have about 3x the longevity of other lithium ion types.

There are some examples of early battery failures, like the Nissan Leaf didn't use liquid cooling; now basically everyone else learned from their example and does it. Chevy Bolts had a battery recall due to bad manufacturing. Basically, if a battery fails early someone somewhere screwed up. Most EV batteries are fine and will continue to be fine for a very long time.

>> "I’m not convinced it ever will be, especially if it’s continued to be made by exotic materials."

Resource constraints are an issue, but there are workarounds. Nickel and cobalt can be avoided simply by using LFP cells. Permanent magnet motors are more efficient than induction, but the permanent magnets don't need to be based on rare-earth elements -- it's just that the non-rare-earth-magnet version would be less powerful and/or bulkier. Similarly you could wind the motors with aluminum instead of copper, and the motor would be less powerful and/or bulkier. But that's fine -- electric motors are already quite a bit smaller and more powerful than they need to be anyways.

Lithium is probably the hardest-to-get-around resource constraint with current technology, but lithium production is ramping up.

Also worth noting that the need for large batteries would be substantially reduced if were to invest heavily into charging infrastructure and even the electrification of roads so that cars don't even need to stop. (There are some projects in Sweden and Germany along those lines.)

Re:Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to d... by tooltalk on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @07:27PM (#37851689)
According to Recurrent's recent report, most EVs lose only about 10% of SOH (or battery capacity/range) after 100,000 miles.

>> LFP batteries generally have about 3x the longevity of other lithium ion types <<

This is not true at all. All LFPs in EVs degrade much faster than other lithium ion batteries:

  Tesla LFP Battery 10% RANGE LOSS PROBLEM? | Model 3 RWD  (Cleanwatt citing Tessie's data) 
  The brand new LFP batteries will degrade substantially quicker.  There's not long-term retention data for LFP batteries on the market yet, but the trend tends to be substantially faster degradation.  Trends show them stabilizing around that 10% degradation mark in about half the time as non-LFP batteries - around 50,000 miles instead of 100,000 miles."
Even in ideal environment, such as ESS, LFPs would degrade substantially faster under high SOC/high c-rates.
Re:Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to d... by elihu on Friday October 13, 2023 @03:08AM (#37867669)
LFPs lose some of their capacity early on, but then the degradation is much slower. It's just a weird quirk, it doesn't mean they're going to fail quickly.
Re:Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to d... by tooltalk on Saturday October 14, 2023 @08:32PM (#37885644)
>> LFPs lose some of their capacity early on, but then the degradation is much slower. ... <<

There is nothing weird about lithium ion batteries, including LFPs, degrading quickly under high SOC/high C-rates -- ie, EVs. We don't know anything about LFP's longevity in EV profile -- ie, high SOC/high C-rates -- and while there is no long-term data to verify LFP's true lifespan in EVs, it's been demonstrated that LFP could lose as much as 1/3 of its lifespan under 100% SOC in ESS profile.

LFP's are already mostly limited to entry-level, low-range EVs due to its other technical short-coming in moving vehicles (ie, low energy density and weight). This quick degradation makes even less appealing in vehicles.

Re:Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to d... by elsonrodriguez on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @06:42PM (#37838680)
Liquid fuel is inherently unscalable, it is a finite resource.
Re:Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to d... by vel0city on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @09:47AM (#37844345)
Gas, especially gas with ethanol in it, absolutely goes bad unless stored very well. It'll oxidize, absorb water, and evaporate within months. There's a lot of reasons why people "winterize" their lawn equipment; gas going bad is one big part.