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Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by skybrian on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:22PM (#37804685)
It seems like an odd place for a socialist like Doctorow to publish. I wonder how that happened?
Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by yankput on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:39PM (#37804852)
I was as shocked as you, but then I remember, the paleo-conservative right doesn’t like big tech as they are seeing them as censors.
Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by catlover76 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @07:16PM (#37806327)
Which is of course really weird given the history of big tech, Facebook in particular, serving as a distribution channel for right-wing bullshit. The internet in general served as an incubator for all sorts of right-wing stuff that found it difficult to find purchase in broader society.

Being down-voted by people who deny the reality of fake news about Hillary Clinton even though many of us saw it with our own eyes, and who deny the existence of places like 4Chan. Deny the existence of reporting about Facebook's role in propagating content that led to genocide in Burma (their right-wingers do what ours can only dream of), etc.

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by vertis on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:32PM (#37804779)
Very strange. I mean this is a publication that has Tucker Carlson on the Advisory Board.
Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by yankput on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:48PM (#37804944)
Funnily enough, literally the previous article from the same series praises Margaret Thatcher.

Lol.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/how-the-ownership-re...

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by paulddraper on Sunday October 08, 2023 @03:41PM (#37813751)
Specifically in the context of privatization.

I see that as entirely unrelated to this article

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by ReptileMan on Saturday October 07, 2023 @03:56PM (#37805008)
Culture wars make strange bedfellows.

Right now there seems to be proto-forming an (reluctant) alliance between the saner right and the part of the liberal left that is scared/disgusted of the more fanatical illiberal ultraprogressives.

If you want freedom of speech and the freedom of computing - the conservatives are natural allies. Not that they are terribly principled, but because they are getting the shaft at online censorship they are willing to tolerate free speech a bit more, at least until they get to power.

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by wustangdan on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:24PM (#37805210)
I see it less as an alliance and more like a shift. Being pro freedom of speech and the freedom of computing you are pushed out of the left. You can say they aren't the actual left, but the fact is their anti-free speech ideas are polling over 50% so hate to say it, but they are the left. See "The shift in Democratic views on free speech — what’s going on?"

"at least until they get to power" 2016-2020 was when the left ramped up their censorship efforts, not the right. So how do you square that sentence with what actually happened?

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by darigo on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:36PM (#37805300)
>So how do you square that sentence with what actually happened?

One way to square that with what happened: The left continued accruing power throughout Trump's presidency. I don't think the model of power relations presented in, eg, the constitution, or a civics class, or even an econ 101 class, have existed for centuries now

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by wustangdan on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:39PM (#37805335)
I'd buy that.
Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by ReptileMan on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:43PM (#37805382)
>"at least until they get to power" 2016-2020 was when the left ramped up their censorship efforts, not the right. So how do you square that sentence with what actually happened?

During the Trump years the leftist controlled only the social media, most of traditional media, cultural institutions, academia, almost any big institution became "woke" and the civil service. And whomever has watched Yes minister knows who actually rules a country. And the censorship machine was well oiled for the 2020 election. We had literal pleas to pharma giants to postpone the covid vaccine after the election.

https://www.natesilver.net/p/twitter-elon-and-the-indigo-blo...

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by catlover76 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @07:18PM (#37806336)
> And whomever has watched Yes minister knows who actually rules a country.

Are you under the impression that Yes Minister was a documentary?

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by ReptileMan on Saturday October 07, 2023 @07:51PM (#37806583)
>Are you under the impression that Yes Minister was a documentary?

Are you under the impression that it wasn't?

Trump years showed clearly how the career people could sabotage easily administration's agenda.

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by catlover76 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @08:01PM (#37806635)
Yeah sure bro, sabotaged; totally not the case that Trump and his stooges were incompetent, just as many predicted and warned.

Imagine if Trump had just let normal Republicans run everything the way they would have done had we had a President Kasich or something; things probably would have gone fairly well and we'd most likely be in his second term right now.

Man, if I had a son and he turned out to be right-winger, I don't know what I'd dislike about the situation more: that he'd be bigoted or that he'd be a little bitch who participated in a culture of never assuming responsibility for one's own short-comings and instead of blaming his failings on shadowy others (as well as being so unselfconsciously asinine so as to publicly assert that "Yes Minister" somehow possesses real explanatory and descriptive power).

Granted, if he were a committed left-winger that would come with its own set of problems, but at least most of his misjudgments would involve a kind of misdirection or misguidance of moral impulse and an overabundance of empathy and altruism, as opposed to the almost naked abandonment of any semblance thereof.

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by danShumway on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:16PM (#37805148)
Doctorow (imo) prioritizes breadth of reach over control over how and where his message gets delivered.

It's an interesting strategy in part because it means a lot of the people encountering him are probably not aware of him in other online spaces, they'll only see him when republished in sources they already read, and they might not ever work their way back to his blog.

On one hand I'd be very worried about dilution of the message, misinterpretation, etc... On the other hand, it's enabled Doctorow to get some of his concepts into much wider cultural circles than he otherwise would have access to, so it's hard for me to criticize it too much.

And I think that Doctorow also has a talent for figuring out how to frame his ideas in a way where the conclusions stay the same, but it feels like he's reaching those conclusions by arguing specifically from your individual starting position and ideological base. His essays tend to (again, imo) feel tailored in a way where regardless of the context or regardless of where the essay is published, it'll have this vibe of "I'm on your community's side and I'm saying stuff that you all are going to nod along to and agree with... and therefore X/Y/Z."

Pros and cons to that approach, but it makes him accessible in a way that many other political writers aren't. So it's not too surprising to me to see his writing show up in Conservative circles as well as Liberal ones, I think it just kind of shows his talent for subtly reframing political discussions depending on the context.

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by samtho on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:38PM (#37805322)
Something that seems absent these days in American political discourse is the assumption that the other party, in general, has a similar north start to your own, i.e. both conservative and liberal ideals (in the recent past) seemed well-intentioned enough to claim that they each just want what’s best for the country. Now it seems like we have four factions and the centrist left and centrist right just seem to be merging while the far left and far right are moving further away from everyone.
Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by catlover76 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @07:13PM (#37806305)
Feels to me like centrist left and right are getting pulled apart from one another to their respective ideological fringes.

This has pretty much just totally happened to the Republicans; Democrats have done a better job of staying centered and responsible, but I don't think that's a given forever.

> Something that seems absent these days in American political discourse is the assumption that the other party, in general, has a similar north start to your own

Well, they don't have similar "north stars" or visions of the country or normative values. But this isn't discussed or debated directly by anyone, politician, talking head, or otherwise.

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by Animats on Saturday October 07, 2023 @05:46PM (#37805840)
Doctorow is arguing, as usual, for stronger antitrust enforcement. "As antitrust enforcement was progressively neutered—tentatively by Carter, aggressively by Reagan, and with varying degrees of enthusiasm by each successor administration, Republican and Democrat—tech companies were able to simply buy their competitors." That's unusual for a conservative publication. At least in modern times.
Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by danShumway on Sunday October 08, 2023 @09:21AM (#37810208)
I don't think the broad base of the Republican party has had strong feelings against antitrust for at least 6 or 7 years, if not longer. I grew up as a small-government don't-interfere-with-anything Conservative, so I understand the philosophy you're talking about and understand the instinct to say that Conservatives wouldn't want antitrust, but I don't think it's true an I don't think that vaguely Libertarian wing of the Republican party is representative of what most Republicans now believe.

If Doctorow is picking up on that then I think his instincts are correct; I think a lot of modern Republican voters and Republican publications are much more receptive to government involvement in the market.

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:32PM (#37805272)
He's a socialist? I've always gathered that he is pro-capitalism but doesn't like the market capturing aberration that is big tech. Capitalism thrives on fair competition. Wanting to take a regulatory hammer to break up trusts isn't socialist- it's a necessary part of fair capitalism.
Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by skybrian on Saturday October 07, 2023 @07:33PM (#37806452)
The Wikipedia article points to a tweet:

https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1454158218117197826

Re:Doctorow – A Murder Story: Whatever Happened to Interoper... by avgcorrection on Saturday October 07, 2023 @05:27PM (#37805715)
Conservative outlets can be less censorious towards socialists than liberal ones. Left-liberals like to pose as being progressives and socialists have a tendency to reveal that they are not.

(I take your word for it that they are a socialist since I don't who they are.)