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Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by raincole on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:35AM (#37777782)
I'm migrating from Krita to Photoshop lately.

Don't get me wrong, I love Krita. I used it for years and I wrote ~30+ bug reports. It's a positive thing -- I won't bother reporting bugs to Adobe cause I know they don't care, unlike Krita devs.

However every time I need to collaborate with someone else, they use Photoshop. They use .psd like it's an interchangeable format[1]. Out of 10+ artists I've only seen one who doesn't use PS, and it's not Krita.

[1]: I know Krita can read and write .psd.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by moelf on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:38AM (#37777825)
is there an interchangeable format for this? .tiff? .ora?
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by raincole on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:43AM (#37777864)
If interchangeable format means non-proprietary then Krita's .kra is one. If it means a format designed to be used as interchangeable format then .ora.

If it means one that everyone uses then none.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by alexvitkov on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:20AM (#37778952)
There is one that everyone uses, unfortunately.
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by sweatypalmer on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:42AM (#37777856)
Maybe a stupid question, but if Krita can read/write .psd then why does this matter?
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by raincole on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:46AM (#37777887)
Because just like the most "open source app reading/writing proprietary format" scenarios, it doesn't do it perfectly.

Even if you simply import a .psd and re-export it again as-is, it will still break things like smart objects and layer blending options.

It's not Krita's fault: .psd is not an interchangeable format. Implementing .psd support perfectly is basically implementing the whole PS itself. It's all the artists' "fault". But it doesn't change the fact that using Krita makes my days difficult.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by numpad0 on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:01AM (#37778059)
And I believe .psd is still the only "raw" common format for artistic drawing, right?

I've once seen a .psd that won't display correctly in neither Ps or CSP, supposedly because it was exported from something else. That didn't seem like a fun situation.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by tambourine_man on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:15AM (#37778188)
And PSD is notoriously complicated. I remember reading some rant by an open source developer and there were things along the lines of different endianness in the same file.

It’s a 30+ year old format that went to multiple transitions. I don’t envy the poor soul that has to reverse engineer it.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by lloeki on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:37AM (#37778441)
> I remember reading some rant by an open source developer

This one? https://github.com/gco/xee/blob/4fa3a6d609dd72b8493e52a68f31...

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by alexvitkov on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:18AM (#37778938)
Fantastic read, thanks.
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by tambourine_man on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:21AM (#37778971)
That’s the one yes, thanks.
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by funnyflywheel on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:28AM (#37779044)
I took a look at the git blame, and the commit title is perfect.

https://github.com/gco/xee/commit/750196023da5457d9535b30299...

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by seanthemon on Thursday October 05, 2023 @11:43AM (#37780072)
My favorite part is the immediately followed //sanity check, too apt.
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by redeeman on Friday October 06, 2023 @07:00AM (#37789151)
> Krita makes my days difficult.

Or maybe the huge goliath that gives less than 0 shits about interoperability makes it difficult?

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by Kelteseth on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:51AM (#37777941)
Why not Affinity Designer/Photo?
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by raincole on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:58AM (#37778017)
Perhaps it's a just me, but I've never met someone who uses Affinity Photo as their main digital painting app. The one artist who doesn't use PS actually uses Clip Studio Paint.

I'm not saying it's not a great app (I'm not familiar with it enough to judge it). But if I'm not using an open source one, I'd use the industry standard one.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by hoistbypetard on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:42AM (#37778488)
I'm not a real artist. I do programmer art for game jams, MVPs, UI mockups, etc. I always liked Affinity Designer on iPad for that. It's got nice Apple Pencil support, it was inexpensive, and it works with other file formats pretty well.

Last time they had a sale on their "Universal" bundle, which got you Mac, Windows and iPad licenses for all their products for $100, I had just received some illustrator files that I wanted to work with on my desktop and decided to go ahead and pick that up.

I now find myself using Photo and Designer instead of Krita/Gimp and Inkscape, because I'm more efficient with it as a non-expert user and because the .psd and .ai interop is better.

I need to deal with one of those two file types approximately 0.75 times a month, so the industry standard one feels eye-wateringly expensive. But a one-time $100 fee for a less frustrating experience than the open source ones offered felt worthwhile to me. And they've grown on me to the point that I pick them up when I need to make something for a game jam, not just when I need the interop.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by 7moritz7 on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:09AM (#37778834)
The Affinity Suite has substantially better UIs than the Adobe pendants. It just works immidiately without tutorials, and it works really well
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by egypturnash on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:31AM (#37779091)
I am a pro artist. Most of my artist friends who don't use Photoshop either use Clip Studio or Procreate. In general the Clip/Procreate split corresponds strongly to whether or not they do a lot of comics.

There's a handful of other programs that one or two of my friends use but absolutely zero of my friends have talked about using Affinity Photo.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by catapart on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:58AM (#37778012)
I feel this pain. Photoshop is such a massive beast and really doesn't do anything for me that other programs don't. It's just too ubiquitous to work around without literally budgeting in your hours for having to work around it. -_-
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by hospitalJail on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:04AM (#37778084)
Hate defacto standards behind corporations.

M$ Windows, Photoshop, each company gets locked into their own CAD nightmare.

On the flip slide, we have Blender, Linux Server, (enough)SQL, Git, Stable Diffusion, and maybe python/python libraries if that counts.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by raincole on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:07AM (#37778104)
When I moved from web dev to game dev, the second most surprising thing I found is how much this industry depends on proprietary solutions compared to web dev.

The most surprising thing is how little professional people get paid, again compared to web dev.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by nunodonato on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:31AM (#37778372)
that's why I switched from gamedev to webdev :D
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by phone8675309 on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:20AM (#37778239)
> The most surprising thing is how little professional people get paid, again compared to web dev.

They pay less because they can - there are many more highly motivated people who dream of making video games than there are open spots.

People are less highly motivated who dream about making Another Corporate CRUD App 2.0 (this time with Firefox support), and there are a lot more job openings.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by raincole on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:21AM (#37778252)
Yes, I understand that. It's just like filmmaking industry but not that bad.

If I had had the same level of understanding of economics as I do now, I probably would have stayed in web backend development.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by pxc on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:05AM (#37778779)
From an engineering perspective, are there any things you prefer, or are at least glad to have learned from, in game dev?
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by johnnyanmac on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:51AM (#37779349)
Not too surprising. It's built into gaming's history to work on and release a game purely woth in house tech. And then submit it to a proprietary console maker for a "seal of quality" (or what used to be that). And then other important tools (especially for artists, but a lot for programmibg) served this same mentality as AAA development grew. Support was more important than anything else as tools became more comple, and these studios weren't used to sharing to begin with.

The phenomenon of open source tools being able to even be considered by professional development is a very recent phenomenon (in the grand scheme of things). But for programmers it's still difficult because console support is so important and still extremely closed down.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by borbtactics on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:24AM (#37778300)
Same here. I want a Photoshop alternative that has built-in tate-chu-yoko but I've never seen one
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by catapart on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:59AM (#37778726)
Perfect example of something that most people will think of as "not necessary", but a whole industry will understand as close to, if not outright, a deal-breaker!

It would be really cool to have some kind of open source community that developed these kinds of "usage specific" plugins across multiple open-source projects, to kind of patch in that functionality where it's missing. Some people to work on ever-evolving interfaces for the supported applications, and then some other people to write plugins that provided these features, progressively enhanced, based on those interfaces.

It would be a gargantuan effort, though, and you would just end up with a plugin soup without careful moderation (even more effort; and easy to go awry!) so c'est la vie!

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by danjc on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:47AM (#37778561)
Seems that a near-perfect psd import/export would be the killer feature that enables it to compete with Photoshop. That would be huge.
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by raincole on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:06AM (#37778796)
I highly doubt if Krita has the man power to do this. They've been developing a new text system for more than one year. The new text system isn't designed to be compatible with Photoshop.

And even if it is, rendering text just like Photoshop is just a tiny step towards rendering everything like Photoshop.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by bonzini on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:25AM (#37779013)
Relevant: "PSD is not my favorite format" (2009)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25946103

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by BeFlatXIII on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:53AM (#37779367)
Does that one (1) non-Photoshop artist prefer .xcf?
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by raincole on Thursday October 05, 2023 @01:30PM (#37781421)
Clip Studio Paint. I highly doubt any of them even knows .xcf (I didn't ask tho).
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by danShumway on Thursday October 05, 2023 @11:15AM (#37779676)
Not to detract from raincole's point, and this is not relevant at all to their problem, but just a general reminder that in many ways Krita is not a direct competitor to Photoshop unless you're using Photoshop as a digital painting tool -- and if you are, I would argue that Krita is arguably a better product in some ways.

I think that Photoshop is an image manipulator first and foremost, and Krita is a tool for drawing/painting, maybe doing some light traditional animation although even that is not it's primary focus.

I think that CSP, Procreate, etc... are more direct competitors to Krita. Photoshop is a competitor to Gimp.

Again, does not change anything about raincole's comment, and I don't think that raincole was suggesting that they were direct competitors. It's just that whenever Photosohp and Krita get mentioned in the same sentence I feel like the assumption from many readers is that they're trying to do the same things, and I would personally say that I think they're separate categories of applications. There are things that Photosohp does that Krita doesn't want to do and will probably never support, because it's a painting app, not an image manipulation app.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by raincole on Thursday October 05, 2023 @02:04PM (#37781870)
I agree. Off the top of my head, the most important new features they introduced in recent years were:

Krita: A new brush engine. A new file format for brushes. Some animation features that I don't use. New text system.

PS: AI-based object selection. AI-based neural filter. AI-based generative fill. New Javascript API for plugins.

It's quite clear that Adobe doesn't see PS as a digital painting app, but an (AI-assisted) image manipulation app.

Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by yuukisenshi on Thursday October 05, 2023 @11:41AM (#37780049)
What industry? I am involved in the game and illustration industry, and work with mostly eastern studios. I have seen a 90% CSP usage rate, with the last 10% mostly being procreate users. Photoshop is in usage to the same degree as Paint Tool Sai and I have never seen a Krita user.
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by orbital-decay on Thursday October 05, 2023 @12:38PM (#37780784)
What kind of work you do? The primary use case for Krita is digital painting, where a lot of artists use CSP and typical pipelines allow certain freedom of choice. I used to work with 2D artists, and perfect PS compatibility was a deal breaker everywhere except for digital painting.
Re:Krita fund has 0 corporate support by libraryatnight on Friday October 06, 2023 @04:11AM (#37788274)
I don't ever really collaborate, so I had come to comment that I recently switched to Krita and have really been enjoying it. Between Krita, Gimp, and Blender once I swap some fonts in places I can drop my Adobe sub which has at least been dropped to the minimum package.

I switched because it seems like it's important to use and support open source tools wherever possible, proprietary software is feeling more and more hostile to the user. I'm redirecting the money I was spending on Adobe products to open source donations.