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Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by usrusr on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:28AM (#37775774)
Why would you need numbers for right angles? You need a straight line and a string.

But I agree with the second paragraph: there's a huge difference between a procedure that is handed down as part of "this is how we estimate a building protect" and a theorem that is declared universal truth and base for all kinds of other theorems. Even if they are exactly the same thing.

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by detourdog on Thursday October 05, 2023 @06:20AM (#37776814)
How useful are universal truths compared to getting shit done?

I only see theorems as useful for complex societies. The son of a gem dealer would have the time to work out universal truths.

The reputation of everyone doing it without numbers would reveal the pattern of the universal truth.

Finally this looks like it was all done using cuneiform.

Which brings up questions of notation and the language to describe a square root.

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by usrusr on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:06AM (#37777549)
Getting shit done is the antithesis of progress because it goes hand in hand with "if it was good enough for my father, it will be good enough for me, who are you to disrespect (the methods of) my father!"
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by detourdog on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:14AM (#37777603)
I agree but dying for ideals isn’t much progress.

Progress is a luxurious goal.

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by empath-nirvana on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:08AM (#37778126)
What everyone is talking past here is that the Babylonians discovered what engineers call a "rule of thumb", and engineering is focused on getting things done using rules of thumb. The best possible rule of thumb is a mathematical proof or a scientific discovery, but it's by no means necessary. .

Observing that something always holds and even having a formula for it is not the same thing as having a proof, and the proof is what makes it mathematics and geometry and not "just" engineering. The babylonians had a rule of thumb -- the greeks discovered the theorem -- and more than that, they seem to have invented the mathematical/geometrical proof as a concept, along with formal logic.

Without that mental framework, it's hard to say that the babylonians proved anything or had any theorems at all, only collections of rules of thumb. It's quite likely that lots of babylonians sort of independently and intuitively understood _why_ it must be true, but they don't seem to have ever written it down.

Not that there's anything wrong with having rules of thumb -- it's a huge achievement to even notice and collect and teach those things, all the stuff around you is built relying on them.

I encourage everyone to watch this series of videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ivqWN4L3zU

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by detourdog on Thursday October 05, 2023 @05:38PM (#37784610)
I think what you might be touching on is that the "rules of thumb" may have been so integral of the culture as to be hidden.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by ordu on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:17AM (#37778212)
> How useful are universal truths compared to getting shit done?

As I understand Greeks invented proofs because "universal thruths" they exported from Babylon and Egypt sometimes explicitly contradicted each other.

I believe such contradictions may be a great nuisance when you try to get shit done.

Egypt and Babylon were sufficiently "complex" societies for proofs, but their tradition treated mathematics as a bunch of useful facts about numbers and shapes. New generation just memorized them. We should think it worked for them in most cases, and when it didn't work it was not so often for them to start thinking a lot of reforming mathematics. Plus they were indoctrinated by the math they learned (authority of a teacher is above of anything else, i suppose) and to reform math was not a natural idea for them.

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by andrewflnr on Thursday October 05, 2023 @06:59AM (#37777047)
I've personally worked on a project where we used a 3-4-5 right triangle to lay it out on the ground. Straight lines alone do not get you right angles.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by rcxdude on Thursday October 05, 2023 @07:08AM (#37777092)
You can get right angles with a straightedge and compass, both of which you can make on a construction site with string and pegs in the ground. It's just an instance of bisecting the angle. Which is more convenient in practice is situational.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by KMag on Thursday October 05, 2023 @12:06PM (#37780398)
Right. The big problem with accurately bisecting a 180 degree angle is you need to have access to points rather far in both directions from both points. If you want an accurate right-angle corner near the edge of a property that's flanked on two sides by fences, rivers, busy roads, etc., then you might not have convenient access to one of the anchor points needed to perform your bisection. (Or semi trucks snagging your rope might be inconvenient.)

The nice thing about Pythagorean triples for drawing out foundations is that you don't need access to any ground outside the foundation of your building. Being integers, you also don't need any measuring device apart from some rope. You just pace out a bit under 1/3 of the shortest side (or a bit under 1/5 the longest side, whichever is shorter) (call this an "'bout-right") length of rope. You then use your 'bout-right to make a 3'bout-right, a 4'bout-right, and a 5'bout-right piece of rope. Pull the three ropes tight in your perimeter, and you've got your right-angle for your foundation.

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by andrewflnr on Thursday October 05, 2023 @06:19PM (#37785000)
Fair, I didn't realize they were using the string as a compass.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by mauvehaus on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:36AM (#37777794)
You can certainly get close enough with straight lines. If you create a parallelogram, you can get it square by making the diagonals the same length.

And if you can determine that the diagonals are the same length, you have what you need to get close enough to a parallelogram in the first place.

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by chriswarbo on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:56PM (#37783489)
IIRC, straight lines alone will give you projective geometry (which also has points, but they're the meet of two lines).

> If you create a parallelogram

Parallelism requires affine geometry, which you can't get just with straight lines (and their meeting points). Here are couple of explanations:

- We can also get projective geometry by using great-circles on the surface of a sphere (e.g. "equators" at different angles around the Earth), instead of straight lines on a flat plane: both situations give rise to exactly the same theory. Parallelism doesn't exist on the surface of a sphere, since all great-circles will meet at two antipodal points, so projective geometry (which describes great-circles as well as straight lines) cannot be used to construct/ensure/check that two sides of a quadrilateral are parallel.

- Alternatively, consider that projective geometry is invariant to changes in perspective, whilst parallelism is not. For example, we can get two straight lines by tracing over a photo of train tracks. If the photo was taken top-down, then the lines we traced will be parallel; but if the photo was looking along the track then our traced lines will converge (in the photo, they "meet" at the horizon). Projective geometry (and hence straight lines) can't distinguish between these two scenarios, due to this invariance.

> And if you can determine that the diagonals are the same length

If we extend our straight-line setup with some way to determine parallelism, we still wouldn't be able to compare the lengths of the diagonals, since they go in different directions. Projective geometry + parallelism is affine geometry, which can only compare lengths in the same direction. Essentially, parallelism allows us to translate: we can use this to compare two line segments by translating one so they share a common starting point, then seeing whether the other end has landed closer or further than the first line's. The latter comparison only makes sense if all the points end up colinear (i.e. the original segments were parallel, unlike a pair of diagonals).

To compare the diagonals we also need some form of metric, e.g. like the distance between a pair of compasses.