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Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by Jtsummers on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @10:54AM (#37766063)
> Also called the “waterfall” method, Gantt charts create a visual metaphor of tasks and their dependencies and contingencies so you can see each individual task in terms of when it should start and when it must be completed, relative to the overall project and the tasks coming before it.

That's a strange claim. Gantt charts are not a method, so claiming that they're "[a]lso called the “waterfall” method" is bizarre on its face. Gantt charts are a tool. They're a visualization of a schedule: the items, their expected start time, duration, their relation to each other. It's useful for any project management team. You have N issues you need to resolve (Waterfall or not) and some can be done in parallel but others have dependencies? A Gantt chart can help you visualize how the work will play out.

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by rqtwteye on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:18AM (#37766434)
After working in too many badly run "agile" environments I really want waterfall to come back. There at least you know where you want to be in a year and how different workstreams fit together. Of course you have to iterate on the plan and respond to changes but that's just common sense in my view.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by s_dev on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:25AM (#37766527)
I read this and it's just insane to me -- would be like arguing for svn to come back instead of all this 'git' nonsense. The battles were fought and svn lost.

Agile became adopted because waterfall is suited for construction projects or factory floors not software development. It accounts for the fact that software developers are very poor estimators (even the best software devs) determining how long things take to build or implement.

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by Shadowmist on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:42AM (#37766811)
Yeah, like construction is known for its ability to deliver on time.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by makeitdouble on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:56AM (#37767056)
On waterfall vs agile, both don't work without significant flexibility and fuzzying the game on the dev team's part.

Waterfall as it was done in early 2000s was mostly a high level plan and smaller unofficial iterations on the ground. We knew we need to test, and sometimes partially release stuff in advance to have an idea of what's actually working and what's half baked.

The same way successful agile projects are almost always done with unofficial rough planning and dependency graphing checked ahead, and smaller iterarion following the big picture from there.

On both methodologies, religiously adhering to the mantra is suicidal, and I don't see agile being significantly better except if all you care about it getting paid iteratively -- which is a noble goal for a consultant.

Perhaps the point that bears reiterating is very few shops actually followed hard line waterfall planning (nor agile, for that matter).

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by frozenlettuce on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @12:03PM (#37767158)
For most developers, agile means being coached daily like in a sports team. Most folks just want to know what to do, work on it, deliver and repeat. Instead of empowering developers it allows managers to micromanage with a daily feedback loop.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by darreninthenet on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @12:12PM (#37767277)
Which is not how agile is supposed to be done. Waterfall done badly is shit as well.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by spentu on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @02:44PM (#37769738)
Not supposed, but is done like that.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by bluGill on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @12:18PM (#37767378)
Most commercial developers are using git as if it was svn with some local caching, and other small features that could be added to svn (at some cost). They call their svn central server github. Very few take advantage of what makes git different from svn. Svn lost, but the reasons were not always good (I never used svn so I cannot comment in detail, but the VCSs I used before git are still the same workflows most use with git)
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by fmajid on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @01:31PM (#37768656)
You seem to have forgotten how bad branching and merging was in Subversion. Trauma, repressed memories and so on, perfectly understandable.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by bluGill on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @01:34PM (#37768705)
As I said, I never used SVN (several other version control systems yes, but not SVN). However it seems like those are fixable problems in SVN.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by nrr on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @02:25PM (#37769481)
They are. You use git-svn as a tool to prepare patches for submission and branch in Subversion only for a release series. It works remarkably well.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by argiopetech on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @12:27PM (#37767548)
Agile (acknowledging the broadness of the category) doesn't account for poor estimation in any way. Agile methodologies simply refuse to answer "when will it be done"-related questions. Even with perfect estimators, it's an intractable problem when you can add new features of unknown complexity to the backlog at any time.

Waterfall is suited for projects where the outcome is known (e.g., guidance software for fancy new jet, embedded software, etc.) where establishing a deadline is necessary and possible because the desired feature set is fixed (at least in theory) and changes are locked behind a (likely multi-year) requirements and design process with contacts and lawyers.

Agile is better suited for exploration of a product space or implementation of projects where agility (surprise, surprise) to changing/unknown client needs is paramount. Clients don't know what they want till they see what they don't want, so agile is great for that type of build. The web-facing world loves agile, because the "end" goal is usually, "make money so we can hire more developers to build more website [whatever that means] to make more money to hire more developers...".

There are means of mitigating bad estimation (e.g., Spolsky's "Painless Software Schedules" and particularly "Evidence-Based Scheduling".), but you can't account for a 50 hour feature added 19 weeks into a project. Agile (acknowledging the broadness of that category) alone doesn't do anything to mitigate either bad estimation or surprise features, it simply trades "known deadline, fixed features" for "unknown deadline, flexible features".

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by nrr on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @02:13PM (#37769306)
> Agile methodologies simply refuse to answer "when will it be done"-related questions. Even with perfect estimators, it's an intractable problem when you can add new features of unknown complexity to the backlog at any time.

I'm unconvinced. If new features of unknown complexity are getting added to your product backlog with the expectation that estimations are done against them and not that exploratory work is planned and undertaken instead, that's a problem with the culture and not with the process.

Scrum in particular (according to Coplien et al. at least) is meant to handle prioritization of work as a conversation between the people who want stuff built and the people actually doing the work to get stuff built. The only thing it recommends—not even prescribes—as it relates to estimation uncertainty is embracing the framework to chart a new course more easily when the facts change.

A big pattern that is prescribed (though perhaps only implicitly via reiterating that the product backlog is strictly in delivery order when work starts) is that the product backlog is append-only when you don't want to trigger more planning and, as a direct consequence, draw up a new refined product backlog for everyone to work from. If you need to reorder your product backlog items to add something in the middle, that's a signal that the facts have changed, and the plan needs to be redone. That isn't prima facie all that different from a more traditional project management method.

Agile only aims to make planning suck a little less to change by baking certain touch-points into the process so that someone can pull the proverbial andon cord unceremoniously.

> Agile is better suited for exploration of a product space

More apropos this, if you've ever heard of a spike solution, that's agile's attempt at controlling for uncertainty when it isn't exactly clear how to do something or how long something will take. It necessarily triggers additional planning, and the product backlog item for it is a clear display of the uncertainty inherent in delivering that helps determine where in the ordering that work should fall.

Likewise, if you generally know what the roadmap looks like and have confidence that it won't change, the uncertainty is still in the humans doing the work. I've always put vacations and bereavements and on call shifts and other kinds of fixed-date "generally not available for product work" things into the product backlog, and having that visible to everyone with stake in the work is always valuable.

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by vegetablepotpie on Thursday October 05, 2023 @01:29AM (#37775191)
At a certain point all software needs to be maintained. Interfaces change, the environment it operates in changes, etc. You can handle that with a level-of-effort support contract. At what point do you say "it's done!" have the development team move out, and have the support people come in?

You could say "requirements are satisfied", is the threshold but those always change on a project. You need to predict what you need in the future. No one is good at that, but the fact that some may be lucky does not imply that it's possible. Doing it right in a schedule based environment means contract renegotiation. This could be expensive and many times its easier for the customer to bypass management and convince the engineers to take on more scope for free. This happens all the time, project managers need to be vigilant! But vigilance does not build value, it just creates avenues for conflict.

Regardless of what your methodology is, every successful project will become a "unknown deadline, flexible features" product at some point in its life-cycle. Why are we bifurcating that stage at an arbitrary point based on faulty assumptions made months and years in the past? What agile does is it moves the arbitrary bifurcation point to t=0 and avoids classes of zero-sum customer-management-worker conflicts.

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by harperlee on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @12:35PM (#37767684)
To the extent that a project involves implementation of existing code / modules / software and other activities that are not greenfield developments, though, the software-development-estimation-ability is not relevant as an argument against these methods, though. All training, activities, budgeting, hiring, etc. "knowable" activities around developing a project can also be managed in that way, and particularly if you're doing agile, you have a cadence against which you can do long-term planning of non-development activity.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by _a_a_a_ on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @01:40PM (#37768816)
git vs svn is just one tool vs another, for different situations, neither better nor worse unless by use.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by orochimaaru on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:44AM (#37766846)
Ooh - I got this monstrosity called SAFe (scaled agile framework) for you ;)
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by robertlagrant on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:44AM (#37766849)
> Of course you have to iterate on the plan and respond to changes

If Agile didn't exist I think we would have just invented it.

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by heisgone on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:52AM (#37766971)
It's all about Power. In an organisation, the person making the "biggest decisions" (largest budget, biggest plan, further in the futur) is the facto at the top of the hierachy and calling the shot. SCRUM is all about making sure developers are not involved in long term planning and allowing non-technical people to be in charge.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by rpcope1 on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:59AM (#37767102)
This is almost certainly why SAFe (as flawed as it is) tends to be popular among orgs with any size at all.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by gostsamo on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @12:02PM (#37767155)
Bad management can corrupt any methodology and then use it as an excuse later. Waterfall can't save you from this one. At best, it will hype you for flexible which will be agile 2.0 with a green leave on the genitals.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by rqtwteye on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @02:47PM (#37769775)
That’s my point. Any method will get corrupted by bad players. My comment was on a lot of agile environments that have turned into micromanagement machines that discourage any kind of long term thinking. If you only look to the next scrum you are pretty much guaranteed to create massive tech debt in the form of many quick fixes.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by gostsamo on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @03:09PM (#37770074)
Well, let me tell you how waterfall will turn into a constant micromanagement hell where the long term plan will be reevaluated every couple of weeks to realign it with the latest available info.

My point is that the uncertainty in a project is a constant and every methodology which tries to change it can only hinder the work of a team.

The best we can hope is that we know what we don't know and have enough robustness to handle what we don't expect.

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by manicennui on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:19AM (#37766452)
I've never seen Gantt charts used for anything other than setting unrealistic expectations.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by dqft on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:33AM (#37766659)
Part 1 of the 2 part Senior capstone project for the software engineering program I attended required students to create a a full project management suite of Gantt charts, UML diagrams, etc and approval from your advisor before continuing with actually building software in part 2. Naturally, I built the software package, then wrote my charts, and the 2nd semester did nothing. It was a complete joke.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by pjc50 on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @12:15PM (#37767326)
This is the way.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by wrycoder on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:22AM (#37766486)
That’s just a function of management forcing.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by meheleventyone on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @02:00PM (#37769131)
I think they have a place to at least try to layout dependencies but in terms of something useful after that they’re not great.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by wrycoder on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:20AM (#37766460)
Gantt and PERT based project management tools are just a way for handling task dependencies and resource constraints.

They can be used with any methodology - waterfall, Spiral, etc.

Most of the “modern” methodologies like scrum are too short cycled to handle complexity well. It seems that the classic techniques like PERT have been forgotten since my PM days. Very useful for something like building a house.

Part of the problem: I haven’t been able to find a decent FOSS replacement for MS Project, which is pretty expensive and not open source. Any ideas?

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by dvdkon on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @12:27PM (#37767546)
What's your workflow in MS Project? I've talked a lot about PM software with non-IT people who have needs that don't fit into the issue-tracking systems I know, so I'm interested to know what you use in MS Project. From my outside view it looks like just one big Gantt chart.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by wrycoder on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @02:21PM (#37769429)
I start by building a Gantt for the top level. Sometimes, I'll just build a Work Breakdown Structure (WBS) (the first two columns, e.g. 1. Survey 2. Foundation 2.1 Excavation 2.2 Concrete Forms etc. and put the task duration in the third column.)

Then I start adding links to task predecessors. If that starts getting messy on the Gantt, I print out a PERT network, tape it together, hang it on the wall and start brainstorming with a felt tip. Enter any added links into the project.

At this point, run a Critical Path calculation (longest path through network from start to finish), which gives you the slack on the CP relative to your must finish date. Hopefully, there is some. If not, look for parallelism opportunities.

Once that's all planned out, some PMs check to see if they have enough human resources to accomplish the tasks, especially the ones running in parallel. Enter the resources, and the software will commit them as early as possible. If there aren't enough, it will push out the critical path.

Issue tracking is pretty orthogonal to project management, unless it identifies unplanned tasks out of the expected workflow. Issue tracking is usually much finer grained than project tasks.

For software, consider this: you want to do an initial system integration acceptance test with the customer next week. You just started the project. What needs to be done to pass that acceptance test? That's your first Gantt/PERT/CPM. You revise it for every integration test as the project develops, sometimes totally. In the old days, we'd call that a Spiral methodology. Top down, but keep re-visiting the top level on a scheduled basis at formal Project Reviews with the customer and negotiating any changes.

For a house, you are just starting. You want a certificate of occupancy in two months. Do you have drawings and a building permit? What needs to be done? Is it even possible? (Changes and delays will kill you, but it's always wise to move as quickly as possible!)

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by nrr on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @02:48PM (#37769801)
This workflow rocks and is basically the same one I try to use whenever I'm shoehorned into project management. I'm always the weird guy with the index cards and tape and string. (:

> Issue tracking is pretty orthogonal to project management, unless it identifies unplanned tasks out of the expected workflow. Issue tracking is usually much finer grained than project tasks.

FWIW, I tend to punt on even having an issue tracker at all. I find that it winds up being a depository for people to dump things that seldom get looked at, and absent tools to trim and prune the issues for me, it turns out that bubbling these things up as failing integration or acceptance tests is often a better use of time.

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by GivinStatic on Sunday October 08, 2023 @02:05PM (#37812910)
Dude, thank you very much for writing in such a detailed way. Allows me to peek into how people with experience think and learn. Very insightful. Again, thank you.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by Jtsummers on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @12:51PM (#37767980)
Sorry, I cannot make any recommendations. I took myself out of any PM responsibilities (or related) a while back because I hated the politicking and other issues so I haven't explored the options. When I was doing that work we used MS Project and some homegrown tools. I get paid well to make software systems and have less stress now.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by joegahona on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:19AM (#37766449)
Gantt charts are also instantly understandable by leadership types, people in Sales/Marketing, etc. The same can't be said for a lot of the other cool-kid artifacts flying around these days.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by zabzonk on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:13AM (#37766356)
i agree - of all of the crap-fest of diagrams one comes across, i find gantt charts one of the least obnoxious.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by andrei_says_ on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @11:59AM (#37767096)
Tasks however are often interconnected to multiple other tasks and often can be a bit unpredictable. So the Gantt chart model ends up being deceptive in both its simplicity and predictability.
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by Jtsummers on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @12:02PM (#37767148)
The Gantt chart can track dependencies, including multiple dependencies. The issue is whether you've discovered all of your task interdependencies or not and whether you add them to the dataset when you find them missing. If you haven't and you don't, you'll be screwed no matter what tools or techniques you use.

It's also possible, and sane people do this, to use ranges instead of fixed times for your durations. This helps to discover risk (particularly of exceeding a deadline).

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by andrei_says_ on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @06:12PM (#37772529)
> If you haven't and you don't, you'll be screwed no matter what tools or techniques you use.

Discovering all interdependencies and details takes much more time than completing a significant amount of the tasks. So again, the diminishing returns of project planning/guessing/tracking vs completing the work.

Also task discovery amidst execution.

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by Jtsummers on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @06:25PM (#37772643)
Good news! It can be an ongoing thing. Tag your issues, tasks, whatevers as you discover missing connections and reevaluate your plan on an ongoing basis. It's not a commitment, only fools commit to plans with incomplete information (and no plan has complete information, unless you can see the future).
Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by atoav on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @01:14PM (#37768364)
Gantt charts are indeed a tool and like every tool one has to be careful to apply it in the right situation.

The problem with some (many?) project managers is that they don't make that distinction. They just try to apply the same tools to every situation. Gannt charts for example are relatively useless to model processes that involve a lot of unknowns or branching paths. And of in such a project they are relied uppon they can become actively harmful.

But this can be the case for literally every other PM tool.

Re:Project Management Software Can't Save You by prepend on Wednesday October 04, 2023 @01:46PM (#37768917)
I think the author conflated things or interviewed poor project managers, or something something bad journalism/wired/etc

The Gantt chart is from Gantt’s method that I think were pretty much all waterfall projects as he practiced 100 years ago making factories or whatever.

But the chart is used everywhere and is super common in agile tools just to sequence stuff and demonstrate your start to start and start to finish, etc dependencies. It’s a common test to see if things targeted will fit in a sprint.

It’s funny when an article’s author doesn’t even read the Wikipedia article on things which makes you wonder what his method is for writing these. Is he randomly inserting terms?