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Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wesapien on Saturday September 30, 2023 @10:18PM (#37721935)
Is the problem in the west due to westerners prefer to not have any children and enjoy their riches or is it because the society is very top heavy and that the a lot of financially challenged westerners opt not to have children? It's both in my opinion but with a heavier weight for financial struggle. I'm an immigrant and other immigrants from my generation are having less children than their parents and are not doing as well financially (includes housing, Canaduh). Immigration does not answer the question of why people are not having more children.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by IggleSniggle on Saturday September 30, 2023 @11:10PM (#37722173)
My spouse and I struggled with whether it was ethical to have children. It was a financial burden of course but one we felt capable of meeting.

I don't think it's really a question of "enjoy your riches," because no matter what your status, nobody can "afford" children, not even the ultra high net worth individuals. It's a burden regardless.

But I think therein lies the answer. There was a time not all that long ago that not having children was a burden. Who was going to bring in the harvest, or at the very least supervise bringing in the harvest? Who could you really trust to take care of you properly when you got old? And of course, there's a biological compulsion as well, but that's much easier to sidestep only in the last couple generations.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by neap24 on Saturday September 30, 2023 @11:34PM (#37722300)
Just what exactly about having kids is not ethical? If ethics is a human construct-and you are contributing to having no more humans around…I don’t know, it just seems like a strange way of framing it.

As for the burden of having kids, I think it’s way too simplistic to say it was a burden NOT to have them in the past. There were different cultural dynamics, for sure, but kids have always been a mixed blessing—both difficult and extremely rewarding. Having kids has historically forced adults to face their own shortcomings. Not an easy thing to do in any era.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by hotpotamus on Saturday September 30, 2023 @11:42PM (#37722329)
No child can consent to being born.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by gaganyaan on Saturday September 30, 2023 @11:50PM (#37722365)
Sure, but if you were to poll everyone on if they were happy to be born, it'd be overwhelmingly yes. Your odds are pretty good of having a kid that was happy that you doinked.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by catlover76 on Sunday October 01, 2023 @12:10AM (#37722458)
> Sure, but if you were to poll everyone on if they were happy to be born, it'd be overwhelmingly yes

...why do you assume it would be yes?

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by gaganyaan on Sunday October 01, 2023 @12:19AM (#37722501)
There'd be a lot fewer people, otherwise. From a pragmatic point of view, we've likely evolved to answer yes to that question, otherwise we would've been outcompeted by another species with a thirst to live and reproduce.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by satvikpendem on Sunday October 01, 2023 @12:24AM (#37722526)
Not necessarily, there are a lot of species that are functional no-ops, such as the Luna moths that grow up to be unable to eat anything as they have no mouths. They can only procreate, continuing the cycle. They are no-ops because there is nothing they can do besides procreate, they cannot even obtain sustenance. So, they might say that it was not worth being born, had they been able to be polled.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by catlover76 on Sunday October 01, 2023 @12:25AM (#37722530)
The survival instinct is still active if someone would rather not have been born, as is the instinct and desire to reproduce.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by voluntaryeuth on Sunday October 01, 2023 @02:24AM (#37723265)
Yeah, probably.

But if, as hotpotamus suggests, "consent" is a useful way to look at this, then that's not good enough. You can't randomly do surgery on people just because you believe there's a 90% chance they'll be happy with the results.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by tomp on Sunday October 01, 2023 @03:20AM (#37723540)
I’m pretty sure you can.

Someone is unconscious and dying, you can save them with surgery, surely it’s highly unethical to wait for their explicit consent?!

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by hotpotamus on Sunday October 01, 2023 @07:50AM (#37725037)
If you polled me, the answer would be no. I'm not exactly unhappy about it either, but I'm conflicted enough about it that it's not something I will do to another.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by mensetmanusman on Sunday October 01, 2023 @06:49PM (#37731773)
Applying the ethics of consent to this topic is probably just shallow reasoning. There are much better frameworks, but if all you have is a hammer I understand the temptation:)
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by IggleSniggle on Sunday October 01, 2023 @12:23AM (#37722517)
The burden it places on yourself, your child, and the incremental burden it places on everyone else living on the planet?

If the ethical thing to do is increase the total happiness (or perhaps contentedness, or satisfaction) of all humans...well it's just not really clear that adding a statistically average human is the way to increase human prosperity / reduce human suffering.

To your other point, now that I'm a parent, it's easy to see that becoming a parent made me into a better person, but there was no way I could have known that that would happen before becoming one.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by tom-_- on Sunday October 01, 2023 @01:58AM (#37723092)
Increasing human prosperity/reducing human suffering is largely a function of technological advancement, wealth distribution and avoiding wars. All of these require a large population of educated humans to drive forward and since yours will likely be educated, probably net positive.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wesapien on Sunday October 01, 2023 @02:31AM (#37723307)
You couldn't observe that around you growing up? It's was clear to me growing up that big families and children with siblings were mostly happier. It didn't matter if the family was rich or barely getting by.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by parineum on Sunday October 01, 2023 @03:23AM (#37723564)
> well it's just not really clear that adding a statistically average human is the way to increase human prosperity / reduce human suffering.

All of history has been an steady march forward of more prosperity and less suffering accomplished by an entire population of, on average, average people.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wkat4242 on Sunday October 01, 2023 @01:12AM (#37722808)
> Just what exactly about having kids is not ethical? If ethics is a human construct-and you are contributing to having no more humans around…

We're really really far from extinction. That's just simply not an issue at all.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by _TwoFinger on Sunday October 01, 2023 @01:56AM (#37723082)
Ah, we are really just one smart kid away from extinction.

Something something boson something neutron, and the Earth goes kaboom.

Children can be very dangerous.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wkat4242 on Sunday October 01, 2023 @06:41AM (#37724608)
True, don't let your kid play with the large hadron collider at work!
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wesapien on Sunday October 01, 2023 @02:21AM (#37723256)
If finances weren't an issue most couples would have more children. It's very practical to have them. I had an an awesome childhood because holidays were so much fun because my parents generation were so many and had lots of children too. We have a huge extended family. It's great/practical to have a huge family / clan regardless if its the 1800s or now.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by missedthecue on Sunday October 01, 2023 @09:21PM (#37732894)
Why do rich countries have fewer children than poor countries?

Why do rich people in rich countries have fewer children than poor people in rich countries?

Nowhere is it seen that more money correlates to more children.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by katbyte on Saturday September 30, 2023 @11:21PM (#37722226)
Prefer? It’s more cannot afford to have kids
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by tuatoru on Saturday September 30, 2023 @11:23PM (#37722233)
It's essentially because of western individualism, de-emphasizing the family unit and prioritizing individual fulfilment. Especially with women, if you believe the doctrine of female choice operates in the world.

Second generation and later of immigrants very rapidly adopt the social customs of the country they live in. This is seen everywhere. Vietnamese to Australia. Filipinas to the US. Congolese to Nigeria. Marocs to Spain.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by satvikpendem on Sunday October 01, 2023 @12:25AM (#37722529)
Lots of countries outside the west are not having kids, especially the collectivist cultures of Asia which directly contradicts your "western individualism" view.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by pphysch on Sunday October 01, 2023 @12:33AM (#37722577)
If you look at the actual countries, it is obvious that the young people not having kids are also relatively individualistic.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by satvikpendem on Sunday October 01, 2023 @12:35AM (#37722593)
How is that obvious? Where are the statistics to show that they are individualistic?
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by pphysch on Sunday October 01, 2023 @12:44AM (#37722644)
I'm not going to spend a bunch of time digging up statistics for you, because I think it is obvious for anyone who has spent significant time in urban areas of developed countries. The youth are obviously individualistic, focused on short-term personal fulfillment, and building a family is the opposite of that.

There just aren't throngs of young people living "traditionally" (non-individualistically) yet not having kids.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by satvikpendem on Sunday October 01, 2023 @12:53AM (#37722683)
There's nothing "obvious" about that. If it's so obvious, you should be able to "dig up statistics." Otherwise, you're just using your anecdotes as some statement of fact. I could do the same and you would be unable to refute them, but I don't think that makes for very engaging discussion on this forum, then.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wesapien on Sunday October 01, 2023 @11:17AM (#37726723)
No way. Youth actually want to belong to a group and fit in unless they are comfortable being outcasts in school (to to college) and not having a social life. The youth are obsessed with cool things and trendy/hip things. They are the most easy target for marketing and sales.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by tuatoru on Sunday October 01, 2023 @01:00AM (#37722727)
Well, again coming from a "female choice" perspective, young Chinese women are striving to have careers (or at least fun) before starting a family. They are being told to do this, and most people conform to expectations. (Choice doesn't mean fully independent first-principles decision making.)

The rhetoric is still about "increasing female labor force participation".[1]

For clarity, the thing you do first is your priority. This is known as "revealed preference" in economics. And careers are individual things, not collective.

Also for background, fertility declines secularly from mid-teens to mid forties where it goes to zero. Waiting has two costs: you have fewer years in which to have children, and you are less likely to have them in each year. (There is a third one in increased risk of congenital illness in the child too.) Nearly every woman knows these things.

1. https://thechinaproject.com/2022/03/08/women-at-work-in-chin...

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wkat4242 on Sunday October 01, 2023 @01:24AM (#37722887)
So.. The answer is not giving women any choice and have them produce babies on demand?

Can you really not see how this doesn't work in modern society? Women fought hard to have rights.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wesapien on Sunday October 01, 2023 @02:47AM (#37723383)
Where and what era you talking about this women baby machines?
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wkat4242 on Sunday October 01, 2023 @03:33AM (#37723617)
Depends on the country. In Holland this was about up until WWII. After that in Catholic areas. My dad was born after the war and from a family of 7.

In other countries it continued even longer.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wesapien on Sunday October 01, 2023 @08:16AM (#37725208)
What does on demand mean exactly? Where they coerced?
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wkat4242 on Sunday October 01, 2023 @11:26AM (#37726802)
Yes. By society (married women had to give up their government jobs until into the 60s!) and by the church. After a couple had their last kid about a year ago they'd get a visit from the priest to remind them there was still more 'work' to be done..
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by ffgjgf1 on Sunday October 01, 2023 @02:00AM (#37723115)
> Chinese

Exceptionally idiotic communist policies probably played a much bigger role. At least initially. If you ban families from having more than a single child and perform forced abortions or impose massive fines on those that dare to have a second one. Well.. I’m not sure what else you could expect

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by mensetmanusman on Sunday October 01, 2023 @06:51PM (#37731782)
Um, China destroys the hypothesis.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wkat4242 on Sunday October 01, 2023 @01:20AM (#37722863)
Individualism is great. There's no point following books or customs from centuries ago when the world has long moved on. A farmer 200 years ago didn't really need to learn to read and write. Just pay off his patron landowner that was exploiting him and use whatever scraps that were left to try and survive.

These days we can move beyond survival and into real fulfillment. And we need to, as well. We can't live without knowledge anymore. Critical thought brought us this far. And we're really far from extinction. We could do with a few billion less people if we want to be sustainable. The transition will be tough for those getting old but it'll be worth it.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by wesapien on Sunday October 01, 2023 @02:36AM (#37723334)
I don't think so. You could go anywhere in the world before the 80s and they had mostly more children. Even the west. Female choice is a trade off not a benefit.
Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by gofixurcode on Saturday September 30, 2023 @11:23PM (#37722234)
I think there are a number of factors at play here. I think a large part of it is that having children is extremely expensive. You need a bigger house, a bigger car, need to buy more food and then pay for their entire life for about 20 years or so. Given the cost to just sustain one’s self these days I think it is not a surprise that many people opt to have fewer children or none at all.

I think that also there is a culture shift that has taken place, there is less pressure to create a traditional family unit. More virtue is given to autonomy and following your dreams than settling down. In addition to this, contraceptives such as IUDs have become much more socially accepted, so less people are getting pregnant. Naturally all of this adds up to a drastically lower average fertility rate than a few decades ago.

In summary, it’s a bit of culture shift, economics and science which has led us to where we are today. The result is that in the next few decades we will either have to start having more children again, or rework the way our economies are structured to account for less growth in exchange for a focus on sustainability and providing a livable wage for all people. Its likely that if we keep with the status quo, quality of life will keep going down until we hit a breaking point.

Re:Don't worry about global population collapse by charlie0 on Sunday October 01, 2023 @10:36AM (#37726319)
For me it's definitely about the money. It's not that I can't afford children, it's that I can't afford them AND also do things like stop working while giving my family the lifestyle I want. Ultimately, it boils down to financials. Boomer parents aren't willing to help either nor have they asked for grandchildren. Seems to be working out alright for now.