News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:European Legislation Could Create Liability for Free-Soft... by lijok on Saturday September 30, 2023 @03:17PM (#37718766)
Haha, you're right. It went right over my head.

I'd be happy to pay for their ibuprofen if they can prove the adverse effect my comment had, and if it continues having adverse effects, I'll make sure to take my comment down or improve its quality so as to stop causing the adverse effect.

Re:European Legislation Could Create Liability for Free-Soft... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday September 30, 2023 @03:26PM (#37718857)
Are you sure you're willing to do that? This website is read by hundreds of thousands of people. If even 1% of them have been adversely affected by your comment, you could be on the hook for thousands of dollars. And you've posted many other comments in this thread alone.
Re:European Legislation Could Create Liability for Free-Soft... by lijok on Saturday September 30, 2023 @03:30PM (#37718895)
Yeah, it would be pretty bad for my wallet. Would make me reconsider posting low quality comments going forward, potentially increasing the quality of the forum long term.
Re:European Legislation Could Create Liability for Free-Soft... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday September 30, 2023 @03:39PM (#37718975)
Or cause it to shutter because nobody is willing to post comments for little or no compensation when it could cost them that much.
Re:European Legislation Could Create Liability for Free-Soft... by lijok on Saturday September 30, 2023 @03:50PM (#37719067)
I'm sure there would be a few, high quality commenters whose risk appetite was sufficient for them to post high quality comments confidently
Re:European Legislation Could Create Liability for Free-Soft... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday September 30, 2023 @04:03PM (#37719216)
What if you still want the medium quality comments?

Publishing information has both externalized benefits and externalized costs, and we don't have a good way of internalizing the benefits or the costs, but if you only internalize the costs you're surely going to deter things that were net positive.

It's also assuming that the unrecoverable positive externalities correlate with the deterrent. But because they're unrecoverable, they wouldn't -- something with an enormous net benefit can be deterred by a small cost because the benefit was going to someone other than who pays the cost.

Re:European Legislation Could Create Liability for Free-Soft... by lijok on Saturday September 30, 2023 @04:54PM (#37719692)
> What if you still want the medium quality comments?

That's a good question that I don't have a good answer to. I would encourage people to strive less towards publishing what they want to be "production ready" OSS, and direct the efforts more towards building smaller building blocks with clear indication it's not to be used in production and extensive documentation on what work needs to be done to productionize the software for given applications. These are just my immediate half-baked thoughts on that question. I had not considered that there might be a demand for medium quality software.

> Publishing information has both externalized benefits and externalized costs, and we don't have a good way of internalizing the benefits or the costs

That is an incredibly well formulated point. This raises some interesting thoughts that I'll need to mull over.

> if you only internalize the costs you're surely going to deter things that were net positive

I think that's fine, right? Unless you are demonstrably deterring a ridiculously outsized net positive, that's just the unfortunate cost of risk management.

Re:European Legislation Could Create Liability for Free-Soft... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday September 30, 2023 @06:51PM (#37720715)
> I would encourage people to strive less towards publishing what they want to be "production ready" OSS, and direct the efforts more towards building smaller building blocks with clear indication it's not to be used in production and extensive documentation on what work needs to be done to productionize the software for given applications.

This is the opposite of how it usually works, and there is a reason for that.

Having something that actually runs is when you start building a community. The crashy pile of garbage that only works 80% of the time will get people interested, because it does work 80% of the time, as opposed to 0% of the time for the most well-tested and documented component that can't be used for anything because the rest of the system hasn't been built yet.

The early adopters knowingly put up with the flaws because the alternative is to wait until it's finished, and they choose not to. And then they make contributions and make it better, which is the only way it ever gets finished.

For the same reason there is no clean demarcation between "in development" and "production ready" -- people will be using the "in development" version in production as soon as it suits them regardless of what you tell them. And the people who do that knowingly do everyone else a favor by polishing the rough edges. The better the code gets, the more people use it, the more contributors you have making it better. It's not a line, it's a spectrum.

> I think that's fine, right? Unless you are demonstrably deterring a ridiculously outsized net positive, that's just the unfortunate cost of risk management.

That's exactly what happens with software, because the externalized benefits have unlimited scale. It's a serious problem even before this -- there are many open source projects with only one full-time maintainer, or only a part-time maintainer, that are used on a billion devices by everybody in the world.

Re:European Legislation Could Create Liability for Free-Soft... by tremon on Saturday September 30, 2023 @03:53PM (#37719103)
I'd be happy to pay for their ibuprofen if they can prove the adverse effect

But that is not what this regulation would have you do. It would require you to actively monitor your HN comments for adverse effects and proactively publish up-to-date fixes and disclaimers on how to avoid those negative outcomes. The affected parties don't need to prove harm, they only need to prove that you failed in your support/maintenance duty.

Re:European Legislation Could Create Liability for Free-Soft... by lijok on Saturday September 30, 2023 @04:38PM (#37719547)
I appreciate your comment, but that's not really what's being discussed in this particular thread.