> You can get considerably more powerful mini PCs for less than a 4GB Pi5 with needed accessories that is upgradable, has further software support, and includes all of what you need to get with a Pi.

Name three, please, with emphasis on the "considerably more powerful" part.

Sure...but it might take me a while...how about this, I'll name...as of current, 385 under $100 all with free shipping: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=mini%20pc&_sa...

The Pi5 is slower than a Core i3 6100, does not support upgradable ram, does not support Pci Gen 3 let alone Gen 3 x16, no actual Sata 6, no upgradable sockets, etc. There are a TON of uses cases for a Pi 5...but only really if power consumption and size is critical for the application. Almost anyone doing a Pihole, Home assistant, or the like is better served by a used miniPc.

Someone buying used electronics on eBay has already decided that their time is worthless and the hardware doesn't need to be dependable out of the box. Which is fine, those are decisions a person could make, but it's just disingenuous to compare the value of one thing to another without taking the you are using someone's untested trash factor into account.

Raspberry Pi 4s fresh out of the factory often have hardware issues themselves (HDMI connector failures, unreliable USB port power supply on reboot etc.), as one can see from the numerous (and unacknowleged) reports on Raspberry Pi forums — so I find the comparison with used hardware fair.

I highly doubt that brand-new Raspberry Pis and used PCs on eBay have anywhere close to comparable failure rates.

Anecdote: my one attempt to use a Raspberry Pi PoE hat ended in almost immediate failure due to a mechanical failure of a header on the hat. (Also the built in fan is crap.)

The RPi itself is still going strong.

[delayed]

There are reasons to prefer a Pi over a used mini PC, but it is not reliability. The fact is that with Pis or PCs, _if_ you're still running after a week, you're highly, highly, likely to survive past the point of usefulness.

Reasons to prefer a pi over a mini PC - easy access to GPIO pins; small(er) form factor; power efficiency; lower weight; still cost if you can work with zeros.

Reasons to prefer a mini PC over a Pi - price to performance ratio is often far, far better; size is "good enough" for people just after a small computer (rather than an electronics project, POC, etc); you are, in fact, reducing ewaste.

In short, if you just need something to run Home Assistant or Plex on ProxMox or similar, you would find more reward in a mini PC than a Pi, particularly in performance.

The bias at play is that people see "old" and equate it with "bad performance". That heuristic only works when comparing like for like - yesterday's mini-PC to today's mini-PC.

> The fact is that with Pis or PCs, _if_ you're still running after a week, you're highly, highly, likely to survive past the point of usefulness.

I might be hopelessly biased since you would regard me as someone who keeps using computers when they are "past the point of uselessness," which is not a phrase I'd actually use.

A lot of the stuff I do to keep computers running after a long period of ownership does not even apply to the Pi, which is nice. I won't ever have to replace the fans on one of my Pis (the case design of the prototype Pi 5s we've seen notwithstanding), but that's a standard thing on PCs. There's maybe one capacitor on a Pi's board? I've never needed to think about it. I've guiltily thrown away and replaced soft power supplies on PCs, even though I had a friend once who knew how to fix them and I should really learn to do the same, but there's considerably less guilt when it's a USB wall wart. I've pitched a few SD cards belonging to Pis over the years (never the proper SSDs, though) but that has never been nearly as painful as a drive failure in a PC.

So I guess I'm saying I would factor in the maintenance burden.

> The bias at play is that people see "old" and equate it with "bad performance".

I see "used electronics" and "eBay" and think of "wasted time," "frustration," "incompetence," "shamelessness," and "fraud."

The other thing I would factor in is that my time is worth something and eBay's main goal, when it comes to used electronics, is to waste it.

> In short, if you just need something to run Home Assistant or Plex on ProxMox or similar, you would find more reward in a mini PC than a Pi, particularly in performance.

I'd split the difference here and say I'd be happy to run Home Assistant on a Pi and Plex, quite possibly, on a PC (but I'd want to at least test on a Pi). I'd be happy to buy a new PC for the purpose from a trusted retailer, or build it myself.

The biggest reasons to prefer a Pi over a mini PC: the documentation, Raspberry Pi Press, the community, the ecosystem.

Let's put it this way: you pop in your SD card, set up a username/password, a few other settings, and you end up with a system that already has Geany and Thonny installed. Go to Help -> Bookshelf and find all the issues of MagPi and Hackspace for inspiration and learning, and a couple dozen books like "Essentials - Code Music with Sonic Pi" or "Get Started with MicroPython on Raspberry Pi Pico". Search "Raspberry Pi Hats" and get a lifetime worth of reading and learning there, hitting just about any domain you could care about.

The vision of the Raspberry Pi wasn't to create a cheap, tiny PC, it was to create a learning platform, of which the cheap, tiny PC is the basis. More than any other computing device I've seen, it really lives up to that vision.

That's just silliness. The Raspberry Pi 4 / 5 are made with sub-$60 dollars worth of materials when brand new. You get what you pay for, which is not much and certainly doesn't include dependability. It's a hobbyist and educational plaything whose top design priority is to be low cost.

Little 1-liter office PCs from HP/Dell/etc. have MSRP closer to $1000 when new, meaning a correspondingly larger BOM cost, and are built to last until obsolete by PC OEMs who have years of experience doing that. Even well used units have better prospects for durability and longevity than new Raspberry Pi boards.

I get that you were trying to be edgy, but you landed on goofy. You're addressing someone who owns over a dozen Pis, dating back to the original 256MB Model B. They've been quite dependable for me. It is not something I need to hypothesize about.

The idea that a machine becomes more reliable as the number of parts increases and the cost increases is an interesting one, though.

I've been using RPis and secondhand mini PCs for embedded systems development and testing professionally for the past few years. I've got 3-4 dead Pis already out of a dozen or so that we have, a mixture of Zeros and 4s, which isn't exactly impressive. Meanwhile the couple dozen mini PCs, despite their age and having been bought used, have had only one failure, a RAM module which was trivial to replace. The failed Pis went into the electronics recycle bin because that's all you can do with them when the develop issues.

Sorry, I stand by my opinion that Pis are hobbyist playthings. I'm sure they were reliable for you but you probably weren't trying to do anything serious with them either.

[delayed]

Power and consumption and size are probably significantly more important than the three you list. How often do you "upgrade the ram" in an application where something like a Pi may be used as a component in a larger system?

That shows 2 results

How about a mini pc with Alder lake N95 with 8g RAM/256g nvme for $120

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mt4AHVM

So double the price for slighly better CPU (3.9GHz turbo speed vs 2.4GHz -or 2.9GHz with OC-, both with 2MB L2 cache), for energy it needs 36W (vs 10W), 2 usb ports (vs 4), no microSD support, and it weights 4 times as much (without including HDD); it does have 256 GB of storage included but for $20 you can get a microSD of the same capacity for the Rpi5 (or 128GB for $10 when that's enough). Yeah, it doesn't look as that much of an improvement.

I just clicked it, and it shows $107 for the 8G/128G version.

But either way, I think your seriously conflating a lot of variables. Things like power draw are not really comparable unless you pick a workload and measure the perf/power, as just clamping the max frequency down, or putting less ram in it can constrain actual power draw, while still possibly being as performant as the rpi.

I don't see pricing for the case + fan + power supply on the rpi, but the 8G model is $80 for the board. So you have to find at a minimum a battery for the RTC, a case, fan, powersupply, and 128G SD for $30. But then SD isn't in the same ballpark as even the cheapest SSD with respect to longevity or at $10 likely perf either. Plus, your shit out of luck if you need 16G of ram on the rpi vs paying an extra $18 on the beelink.

In the end, the rpi is going to be a fun hack device, while the beelink is going to just work with a wide variety of software (windows anyone?) and Jeff G won't have to complain about his m.2->pcie->graphics card not working out of the box either. OTOH, if you actually need to design a HAT/whatever for some special purpose it might be easier than designing a m.2 PCIe device, or it might not be. The GPIO on the rpi might be very handy if it happens to work better than a ESP/whatever attached to the beelinks USB port driving GPIO pins.

Much of this is going to come down to how much one values their time for one off devices, and for larger production runs the fact that the beelink is just one of hundreds (likely thousands) of similar devices that can be drop in replaced when beelink has a supply issue. Particularly because there are devices that are just a $100 more with multiple 2.5G links, sata ports, whatever.

Throw in power adapter, case, and micro sd card for rpi 5. Price difference almost disappears. Do you seriously think that rpi with an sd card going to beat 256gig ssd?

> You can get considerably more powerful mini PCs for less than a 4GB Pi5 with needed accessories that is upgradable

What suggestions do you have for this?

I’m sure some people can find these, but every time I see comments like these (or ones that actually give specifics), it’s always used ones on eBay that aren’t actually better and are in unknown condition.

I’m not doubting that some people come out ahead, but for me, being able to get* the same hardware each time, new, has value. Also, a huge draw for RPIs for me are the GPIO pins.

* Yes, the past few years were hard, but not impossible.

When RPi 4 was going for $200, I got some Orange Pi 5s for about $140 each. My configuration included 8GB RAM, the power supply, and a 250GB NVMe drive.

It seems like it's about on par with the RPi 5 in terms of power. The OS support is lacking, but the M.2 and +4 "Little" cores make it pretty compelling regardless.

Edit: just saw the pi 5 has PCIe :0

The used on ebay is the actual upside. The issue is that most people do not need the size of a Pi and using used hardware is reducing eWaste. That said, my personal grab was an Acer refurbished Acer XC-830 J4125 for $89.

While that looks like a nice small-ish tower PC it doesn't seem like it's in the same class as an rPI on a lot of axes, it seems half way between an rPI and a full desktop tower.

The starter kits which include all that stuff have been about 150% of the price of the bare board for older models.

So at $90, that is 270 results on ebay, many have more ram, I'm filtering on free shipping only. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=mini%20pc&_sa...