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Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by leosanchez on Thursday September 28, 2023 @07:05AM (#37687902)
> China has more like the right approach when it comes to allowing its citizens access to the internet.

Really?

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by Grimblewald on Thursday September 28, 2023 @07:16AM (#37687988)
The state has motivation to self preserve, so is unlikely to suck a population dry. Making the state the only source of fuckery then means fuckery won't kill us. Opening up access to population wide fuckery to the highest bidder however is different. The highest bidder does not care for the life and well-being of the livestock, they care to see their investment pay off.

While I don't agree china has it right, both approaches are wrong as humans are not livestock, we shouldn't even treat livestock the way we do, the Chinese approach is like choosing to sell 50% of all children born while Twitter is like selling as many children as buyers will take.

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by thfuran on Thursday September 28, 2023 @08:03AM (#37688366)
>Making the state the only source of fuckery then means fuckery won't kill us.

Quite right. No government has ever killed anyone, directly or indirectly.

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by Grimblewald on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:13AM (#37690753)
I wouldn't say anyone but they certainly haven't killed everyone
Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by thfuran on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:31AM (#37691064)
As opposed to the tech companies, which have done?
Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by Grimblewald on Saturday October 07, 2023 @04:43AM (#37800107)
Tech companies haven't been around long enough to have that level of impact but if corporate behaviour in general is any indication, then big oil for example is a pretty strong example of why we cannot let private entities act without strict oversight.
Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by hfuyf65 on Thursday September 28, 2023 @07:14AM (#37687977)
It is kinda fascinating is it not? A person genuinely clamoring for the state to carefully control what they they can say/do/think.
Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by bamboozeell on Thursday September 28, 2023 @07:24AM (#37688050)
You mis-read. I think a government has a responsibility to limit who can influence what I (and those around me) decide to do/say/think, whether that's through maintaining a physical border, implementing domestic law and order, or limiting remote access. After all, I don't want to live in a country where significant numbers of my fellow citizens have been unduly influenced by external propaganda and misinformation.
Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by wenebego on Thursday September 28, 2023 @08:13AM (#37688465)
"limit who can influence" is a form of control.

Why are you also qualifying "external" propaganda and misinformation? You're fine with both of those things as long as its "internal"? Can you define what source of misinformation you're okay with?

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by bamboozeell on Thursday September 28, 2023 @08:26AM (#37688620)
>"limit who can influence" is a form of control.

Sure is, and govenments also control what kinds of goods can be sold to me, what kind of transport I may drive, places and buildings I may enter, and so on. Are you advocating for no government? Or are you saying that all (most?) of the controls they currently exert are ok, but they must allow completely free transfer of data in and out? If so, why is the internet so special?

>Why are you also qualifying "external" propaganda and misinformation?

Assuming I live somewhere half-decent, I have greater trust in the government and culture that I know.

>Can you define what source of misinformation you're okay with?

None, really, although defining "misinformation" gets very tricky when you start breaking it down to local specifics. After all, we all knowingly and unknowingly spread some form of misinformation just going about our lives. In any case, why is it a good idea to allow the world's misinformation in, in addition to what we have to sort through from a bloke in the pub / my town's micro-politics / my government's constant battle with the opposition party?

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by hfuyf65 on Thursday September 28, 2023 @09:54AM (#37689644)
<<defining "misinformation" gets very tricky when you start breaking it down to local specifics

Would you not agree it is a strong argument against government wielding that kind of enormous power?

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by bamboozeell on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:24AM (#37690943)
I'm arguing in defence of limiting external data inputs, not filtering by "misinformation".
Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by hfuyf65 on Thursday September 28, 2023 @12:53PM (#37692360)
In practical sense, how would one differentiate one from the other? The end result is the same: data is missing.

I understand your point, but I can't help wondering if you considered what could happen if that approach was adopted.

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by bamboozeell on Thursday September 28, 2023 @02:14PM (#37693438)
What's so precious about "data"? I don't argue that "things are missing" when the postal service refuses to carry certian things, or when shops refuse to stock certain items, or so on. These are restrictions imposed for our own good, as we apparently can't be trusted with unfettered access to all life has to offer. There is naunce here, but my point is - why does the internet get a free pass when we consider the balance of high ideals of free transfer of stuff against what the stuff is and what it does?

>if you considered what could happen if that approach was adopted

People wouldn't waste time, energy, and soundness of opinion from taking inputs and arguing with unknowns on the internet. Kids wouldn't be able to download abitrary apps that have overall negative impacts on their health.

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by hfuyf65 on Thursday September 28, 2023 @02:37PM (#37693786)
<<What's so precious about "data"?

No one knows except the deciding party since someone else decided that you do not get to evaluate whether it is precious. There is a deep distrust in me for anyone who: 1) engages in that 2) argues that it is kosher.

< People wouldn't waste time, energy, and soundness of opinion from taking inputs and arguing with unknowns on the internet.

Right. Them proles should be working instead of entertaining ideas different feom what politburo in US is trying to ram through.

< Kids wouldn't be able to download abitrary apps that have overall negative impacts on their health

I want to be with you, but I worry that you wouldn't really solve apps issue. Would you be willing to elaborate on what exactly you have in mind? Absolute ban? Online id check?

It is pretty clear that we are diametrically opposed on the subject. I am continuing this conversation, because I think it is an important one to have.

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by bamboozeell on Thursday September 28, 2023 @05:33PM (#37696196)
>No one knows except the deciding party since someone else decided that you do not get to evaluate whether it is precious.

Yet there are plenty of other ways to get "data", that until recently were the only ways to get data, that are relatively heavily censored and controlled. We didn't complain that libraries didn't give unfettered access to all information, or that we were not able to start a conversation with an aribtrary human. It's a crucial part of my argment that, thanks to the presentation of (hugely more) data on the internet, it's not possible for even the recipient to understand what's precious and what is not. Take a look around you at people consuming content on the internet. Is that "precious" data?

>Right. Them proles should be working instead of entertaining ideas different feom what politburo in US is trying to ram through.

Interesting take, given that the largely US-centric internet technolgies are being used to push a largely US-centric view of the world on the rest of the world.

>Would you be willing to elaborate on what exactly you have in mind? Absolute ban?

I would not be permitted, as an app developer where I live, to develop something like TikTok and allow kids of all ages free access to (in my opinion) mind poison. Again in my opinion, it's an insane state of things where we allow things we know are bad from external sources to be freely used and accessed. I also think this time will be remembered like we remember the late 1800s, where newly-discovered potent drugs were widely and legally distributed.

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by chatmasta on Thursday September 28, 2023 @08:48AM (#37688891)
If the government published a browser extension that self censored your view of the internet (according to a regularly updated government blocklist), would you use it? Or does this scheme only work when everyone is equally suppressed from reading the same information?

Just wondering if your desire for censorship is borne out of an idea of keeping intrusive thoughts out of your own mind, or if it's more about other people's minds.

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by bamboozeell on Thursday September 28, 2023 @07:20AM (#37688019)
Yes, in that they don't allow unfettered access to the internet outside their borders. As a soverign nation who cares for their citizens' state of mind as well as physical security, why would you not do this in addition to defending your border?
Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by thfuran on Thursday September 28, 2023 @08:04AM (#37688375)
Would you want physical borders defended by locking all the citizens in as well?
Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by bamboozeell on Thursday September 28, 2023 @08:10AM (#37688438)
Where did I say that is how I think physical borders should be defended?

In any case, even in a largely "free" country, I'm not entirely free to leave when and to where I might want.

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by thfuran on Thursday September 28, 2023 @08:18AM (#37688527)
>Where did I say that is how I think physical borders should be defended?

Where did I say you said that? Indeed, had you, I wouldn't have asked. But surely you see the similarities: Blocking non-domestic Internet stuff is imposing restrictions on what information/systems citizens are able to access, effectively curtailing the digital equivalent of a right to travel.

>In any case, even in a largely "free" country, I'm not entirely free to leave when and to where I might want.

What "free" country imposes routine restrictions on its citizens leaving? That you may be denied entry anywhere else is a related but separate issue.

Re:X scraps tool to report electoral fake news by bamboozeell on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:22AM (#37690911)
>Where did I say you said that?

In your previous comment:

>>Would you want physical borders defended by locking all the citizens in as well?

The answer is no, but I don't know on what basis you asked the question. Unless, that is, you mean "If you compared the data access policy of one country to another, you must also be in favour of the physical access policy of that first country". Which, frankly, is an absurd stretch. I was very careful in the wording of my original comment.

>What "free" country imposes routine restrictions on its citizens leaving?

The analogy between free physical movement and free flow of data isn't perfect, but no analogy is. There are places in the world I can't go. I must carry certain paperwork if I wish to travel at all. I am limited to certain entry and exit locations. I certainly can't invite an aribitrary human to visit me in my country.