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Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by zlg_codes on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @04:45PM (#37665595)
Given what the "top" of society looks like currently, the Luddites were correct to be skeptical of technology, and accusations of "Luddite" at the slightest hint of not being 100% on board with the latest fad technology make this discussion seem in bad faith. Most techies I know do not have a skeptical eye for technology, even though IMO they should. This shit is being used to spy on and manipulate us with the data they gather. At what point is it okay to say "no"? My view of the culture says techies never say no to new shiny.

We need a new era of carefulness in computing, both as programmers and as users. We need to demand better accountability. As long as the leaders we have now are still there tomorrow, I'm afraid this goal will never happen. You need a nation who cares more about its people than its GDP to achieve that, and I posit no nation on Earth has that level of care for its people.

Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by kevinventullo on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @06:42PM (#37666812)
My view of the culture says techies never say no to new shiny

The only people I know who remotely care about things like data privacy and GDPR are techies. I personally will never install a “smart home” device.

Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by zlg_codes on Friday September 29, 2023 @02:07AM (#37699849)
Yes, one must generally be technically inclined to be one of the careful ones, but as we both know, that brand of techie isn't as common.
Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by _aavaa_ on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @06:50PM (#37666895)
luddites were not skeptical of technology, or even against it. They were against the way in which factory owners used technology to displace them, in illegal ways, and to falsely advertise the resulting textiles (selling low quality goods while claiming they were of higher quality) in order to undercut them and put them out of business.
Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by chii on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:12PM (#37668969)
The customer is responsible for accepting the level of quality of said goods. And it seems overwhelmingly that they (thru their action, rather than words), prefer to have cheaper, lower quality goods as long as it passes some threshold.

Therefore, if a machine surpasses this threshold, they will win marketshare.

Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by anigbrowl on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:35PM (#37669192)
It's fascinating to me how capital owners are never ever responsible for anything despite having maximal agency.
Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by chii on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:06AM (#37671167)
> maximal agency

how are the capital owners deciding what a consumer would choose to spend their money on?

Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by anigbrowl on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:52PM (#37682543)
Billions of dollars in my bank accounts, the nerves of national infrastructure run through my hands, my face plastered across the infosphere, yet I am but a helpless pawn of the median consumer!
Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by _aavaa_ on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:08PM (#37669448)
If I understand you correctly, selling counterfeit/falsely marketed goods is only a problem if enough buyers can tell the difference?
Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by selestify on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:21PM (#37669586)
No, they never said anything about lying. That would be selling something the customer didn’t paying for.

Selling lower quality goods like the article mentions is not a problem if the customers are fine with it given the lower price of the goods. The customer is responsible for making their own decisions about whether to prioritize cost or quality. As the person you were replying to says, by their actions (purchasing the cheaper, automated cloth), you can tell that the customers to appear to vastly prefer the cheaper, poor quality cloth. Who are we to tell them their preferences are wrong?

Edit: I see your original comment. Where the heck did you get that factory owners were doing illegal worker displacement or doing false advertisement? I don’t see that claim in the article.

Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by _aavaa_ on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:41PM (#37669753)
Hmm. You’re right. This article does not have that claim, I was misremembering it from a similar article written by Cory Doctorow [0]. Also written today, also written on the same book.

He has a long sections: > The true tale of the Luddites starts with workers demanding that the laws be upheld. When factory owners began to buy automation systems for textile production, they did so in violation of laws that required collaboration with existing craft guilds – laws designed to ensure that automation was phased in gradually, with accommodations for displaced workers. These laws also protected the public, with the guilds evaluating the quality of cloth produced on the machine, acting as a proxy for buyers who might otherwise be tricked into buying inferior goods. > > Factory owners flouted these laws. Though the machines made cloth that was less durable and of inferior weave, they sold it to consumers as though it were as good as the guild-made textiles.

Now. The New Yorker article simply states the factories sold worse goods cheaper. Other articles I’ve found published today on it are as vague, or say nothing at all about this specific thing.

The ebook is only sold with Adobe’s DRM, so I won’t be buying that. So I’ll have find another way to see what’s true.

[0]: https://pluralistic.net/2023/09/26/enochs-hammer/#more-6752

Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by imchillyb on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:09AM (#37669979)
People with money purchase quality goods, people without money do not.

People don't 'prefer cheap low quality' they can't afford anything else.

> The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. ... A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory

Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by Aerroon on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:13PM (#37668412)
>Given what the "top" of society looks like currently, the Luddites were correct to be skeptical of technology

I much prefer modern society over what they had. Commonly available running water, electricity, heating, insulation, the internet are some pretty nice things.

>You need a nation who cares more about its people than its GDP to achieve that, and I posit no nation on Earth has that level of care for its people.

And it will come at the expense of future generations. All the advancements of yesterday are what make our modern comforts possible. If we stop that in some redistribution fantasy then tomorrow will not be an improvement over today.

Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by jprete on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @10:28PM (#37669133)
> I much prefer modern society over what they had. Commonly available running water, electricity, heating, insulation, the internet are some pretty nice things.

This is totally, completely, utterly irrelevant to the GP's point.

Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by selestify on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:23PM (#37669599)
It is not irrelevant because higher GDP is exactly what enables many of the conveniences of modern society. Nations ignoring GDP would mean putting access to these amenities at risk as well.
Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by pixl97 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @11:17PM (#37669549)
Do you live in a binary world, or an analog one?

I mean, if you believe you live in a binary world everything is pretty easy. It's a one or a zero. Capitalism, or some kind of hellish pit of communism.

That is not the real world. Instead it is a moderation of forces. Capitalist robber barons would enslave you just as quickly as the most brutal authoritarian would, if allowed. We succeed not because we let the captains of industry do what they like, for we know their greed can never be sated. Instead we have we share are progress in a way that benefits humanity and not the few. We strive to make the world better and not just ourselves richer.

Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by Aerroon on Thursday September 28, 2023 @11:49AM (#37691338)
Then how did this current world order come to pass? There is no inherent force at play or divine will that stops those "robber barons" from doing all of that. The government isn't given onto us by the almighty, it's something people created and upkeep. Those same instincts that created that would also moderate all of the evil you think people would do.
Re:Rethinking the Luddites in the Age of A.I by zlg_codes on Friday September 29, 2023 @02:05AM (#37699833)
Why do you have so much trust in humankind? Have you not read any history? It's very hard for me to take the "wisdom of crowds" or even of antiquity seriously, when doctors used to think it ungentlemanly to wash their damn hands before and after surgery!

We put radium on shit because it glowed, without adequately studying why until women's jaws were deteriorating in their faces.

We put asbestos on shit to prevent fires, but oopsie poopsie, better not breathe any in! And man, those knocking engines just need a little heavy metals to settle down. Whoops, IQ just noticeably dropped? Oh well.

History shows us that humankind, even when assembled and "organized" is always a day late and a dollar short to averting disaster. Nothing ever happens of import until something unavoidable and existentially threatening happens. That's when, magically, we'll be "friends" and "allies" and talk about "camaraderie". As soon as disaster is averted, they go back to being assholes to each other, just like during COVID-19.

What, pray tell, do you think humankind was able to do about evil in the past 5 years?