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Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by travoc on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @12:48PM (#37662066)
Grocery stores are not a monopoly.
Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by jlmorton on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:04PM (#37662383)
Pretty close!

Albertsons owns: Acme Markets, Safeway, Haggen, Jewel-Osco, Kings, Pavilions, Plated, Randalls, Shaw's, Tom Thumb, United Supermarkets, and Vons

Kroger owns: Baker's, City Market, Dillons, Food 4 Less, Foods Co., Fred Meyer, Fry's, Gerbes, Harris Teeter, JayC, King Soopers, Kroger, Mariano's, Metro Market, Pay Less, Pick 'n Save, QFC, Ralphs, Ruler Foods, Smith's

And now Albertsons and Kroger are merging together into one gigantic holy-shit mega corp.

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:08PM (#37662453)
> And now Albertsons and Kroger are merging together into one gigantic holy-shit mega corp.

Well, they want to, but its quite likely that the FTC will prevent or force major changes to that.

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by travoc on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:08PM (#37662441)
Not even close. Combining all those brands results in a 13.5% market share.
Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:10PM (#37662484)
Groceries aren't a single national market, and its quite likely that such a merger would both create both monopolies and monopsonies.

Its also quite likely that the big grocery merger won't happen as planned for that reason.

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by loeg on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:18PM (#37662607)
Albertsons + Kroger is like 90% of the market in Seattle, where I live, though.
Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by unregistereddev on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:56PM (#37663230)
It's very location-dependent. In my midwest metro I believe they'd be less than 5% of the market. I'm sure Albertsons and Kroger each have local monopolies in different regions.
Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by plagiarist on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:22PM (#37663642)
I think they have a good point, though. I would like the laws to prevent a single corporation from being 90% of all groceries for an entire state even if they aren't anything close to a monopoly from a national perspective.
Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by dublinben on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:32PM (#37663788)
That doesn't seem likely. According to this source, Frey Meyer (18.4%) + Safeway (17.3%) would be the clear market leader with over 35%, but there's still robust competition from Costco, Walmart, and others.

https://www.axios.com/local/seattle/2023/04/24/seattle-favor...

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by loeg on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @03:54PM (#37664993)
Note that Fred Meyer (18.4) and QFC (14.1) are already both owned by Kroger. So that would be 49.8% post-merger, per those figures.

These figures seem to be for the Seattle metro rather than the city itself. Costco might be a competitor in some sense but it doesn't serve the area I live -- the nearest one is a 45 minute drive away. WinCos are even further away -- they serve some of the suburbs, but not the city of Seattle. Ditto Walmart. I've never heard of or seen Campeon. Whole Foods / PCC exist, but are expensive. Trader Joe's is fine but not really a full grocery store.

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by rendang on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @04:33PM (#37665451)
With the remainder being made up of Trader Joe's and ...

... Amazon

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by loeg on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @04:52PM (#37665666)
Yeah although TJ's is like 6% of the marketshare of the big two (and Whole Foods / Amazon is ~5%) (see sibling comments).
Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by ecshafer on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @02:17PM (#37663571)
That seems far from a monopoly. Only 2 of those I have ever been to, and the common places I go: wegmans, costco, aldi, trader joes are all not on there.
Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by lotsofpulp on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @12:50PM (#37662119)
Neither is Amazon. Aliexpress, Walmart, Newegg are direct competitors selling cheap crap.

Then there is Target/Home Depot/Lowes/Staples/Costco/Best Buy/etc

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by yomlica8 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:18PM (#37662623)
Doesn't Amazon prevent you from selling on other stores for a lesser price? I always thought that was a galling scam and couldn't understand why it was even allowed at all.
Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:04PM (#37662374)
> Neither is Amazon

The lawsuit that is the subject here details Amazon's durable monopoly power in two markets.

But, yes, if Amazon did not have a monopoly, it could not, obviously, be illegally maintaining a monopoly.

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by ch4s3 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @12:55PM (#37662203)
Neither is Amazon in e-commerce, they hold ~39% of the US market and their eCommerce growth lags behind total eCommerce with 9% and 10% respectively. Wal-Mart is at about 6.5% but had nearly 25% growth this year while capturing 36% of all eGrocery sales in the US.

The only place where Amazon is even near 50% is in consumer electronics and office supplies.

The eCommerce market as such has a very long tail and a lot of competitive players just behind Wal-Mart.

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by rewmie on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:04PM (#37662375)
> Neither is Amazon in e-commerce, they hold ~39% of the US market and (...)

From the link:

> The complaint alleges that Amazon violates the law not because it is big, but because it engages in a course of exclusionary conduct that prevents current competitors from growing and new competitors from emerging.

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by ch4s3 on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:54PM (#37663186)
I obviously read the press release, but haven't read the 173 page complaint yet. But the piece about pricing is DEAD wrong.

The complaint says:

> Amazon uses a set of anti-discounting tactics to prevent rivals from 24 growing by offering lower prices,

But Amazon's contracts with big sellers specifically state that it may only discount when competitors first lower prices, making it in effect a price follower.

It goes on to say:

> Amazon deploys a sophisticated surveillance network of web crawlers that constantly monitor the internet, searching for discounts that might threaten Amazon’s empire. When Amazon detects elsewhere online a product that is cheaper than a seller’s offer for the same product on Amazon, Amazon punishes that seller

Which belies the fact that when you sell on Amazon you agree not to offer lower prices in other places. This is simply Amazon enforce one end of the two way part of the contract. Amazon agrees not to unilaterally slash your prices and you agree not to discount behind their backs. But you aren't as an eCommerce seller obligated to do business with Amazon, they don't have sufficient market share for that.

Furthermore, this statement is specifically false:

> By taming price cutters into price followers, Amazon freezes price competition 11 and deprives American shoppers of lower prices

Amazon is the price follower. If Wal-Mart offers a discount, so will Amazon. If B&H Photo discounts a camera, so will Amazon. The FTC is using sleight of hand here.

I just don't find their arguments here to be very compelling. I'm not against monopoly enforcement, but I just don't see how Amazon actually has the pricing power they're claiming.

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by rewmie on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:22AM (#37671278)
I don't know about that. I think the FTC has a bit more insight than a random guy online who admits didn't even read the complaint, and the FCT went through the trouble of putting together a court case to sue Amazon.
Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by ch4s3 on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:43PM (#37681029)
I clearly read the relevant pricing piece of the claim, and have direct related work experience. So I actually think I know a lot more about Amazon's pricing behavior than some ghouls deep in the FTC who are following Lina Kahn's marching orders to find a case against Amazon.

I think it's sufficient that I'm able to tear apart the section of the complaint that has bearing on something I have direct knowledge about.

Maybe other sections have merit, but the pricing part does not.

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by 2023throwawayy on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @12:57PM (#37662247)
In Denver they are. I imagine other places too. https://kdvr.com/news/local/kroger-albertsons-king-soopers-s...
Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by lotsofpulp on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:03PM (#37662362)
I do not see the purpose of excluding Walmart from "grocery store" when it sells the most groceries in the nation. Costco and Target are also sell huge amounts of groceries.
Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by sib on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @12:52PM (#37662134)
Nor is Amazon
Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @01:00PM (#37662317)
The complaint [0] has 32 pages detailing Amazon's durable monopoly power in two relevant markets, so your claim that it lacks a monopoly might do with somewhat more of a counterargument than you've presented.

[0] https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.32...

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by sib on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @03:43PM (#37664840)
"Monopoly: the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service."

Given that there are things such as Walmart.com, eBay, Shopify, and many hundreds of other online commerce stores, they are self-evidently not a monopoly. In fact, they don't even have a majority share of eCommerce in the US.

And they also don't have majority share in cloud services.

Nor do they have a monopoly in eBooks.

I did not say they don't have monopoly power, I said, they are not a monopoly.

(Other than obvious things such as "Amazon products"..., in which case every manufacturer or retailer is a monopoly in their own products.)

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @04:33PM (#37665445)
> Other than obvious things such as "Amazon products"..., in which case every manufacturer or retailer is a monopoly in their own products.

The way this argument is normally presented is somewhat intentionally obtuse. Obviously Nike has a monopoly on Nike shoes, but "Nike shoes" isn't any kind of sensible market definition because you go to a shoe store and there are a dozen brands of shoes that are all pretty fungible with each other.

But then you get into something like "GM-compatible brake pads" and that is a sensible market definition, because if you have a GM car and you need new brake pads, they need to be compatible with your car. But you'll also notice that this isn't even the same thing as GM-brand brake pads. You could get GM-compatible brake pads from a variety of OEMs that are all compatible with your GM vehicle.

Or, it could be the case that only GM makes GM-compatible brake pads. In which case they would have a monopoly in that market. Not because it's a monopoly on their brand of brake pads, but because it's a monopoly on any brand of brake pads compatible with their brand of cars -- which is something else entirely.

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:12PM (#37668406)
> Or, it could be the case that only GM makes GM-compatible brake pads. In which case they would have a monopoly in that market. Not because it’s a monopoly on their brand of brake pads, but because it’s a monopoly on any brand of brake pads compatible with that brand of cars – which is something else entirely.

> Notice that they don’t even have to be the same company.

As a specific example (and note, that you also don’t have to be the literal sole supplier to have a legal monopoly under US antitrust law), the market Microsoft was found to have monopolized in their big antitrust case was the market for operating systems for IBM-compatible personal computers.

Re:FTC Sues Amazon for Illegally Maintaining Monopoly Power by dragonwriter on Tuesday September 26, 2023 @09:07PM (#37668353)
> “Monopoly: the exclusive possession or control of the supply of or trade in a commodity or service.”

That is not the applicable definition for US antitrust law.

https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui...