That is good to know! Thank you very much. I will look in that direction then.

you still need a hub for zigbee connectivity right?

You need a ZigBee hub, but it doesn't have to be a Hue one.

yes, I use home assistant cause I don't need any cloud based stuff for it to work, though I did have to buy a raspi and a zigbee stick to run it on (or if you have some extra hardware laying about, I just like having it separated from my other stuff). I have a few cloud based things attached to it, but I'm selective and don't buy things where essential functionality requires it, but it's a extra & optional feature on something I was going to buy anyways (and that I don't care if data is shared on, like my automatic litter box dump box being full).

You need a coordinator talking to the zigbee bulbs, in most cases this is a usb-dongle for $20-50. Zigbee2mqtt has a great list of different dongles and their pros/cons. The other functionality of a propriatary hub will be fulfilled by home assistant or Zigbee2mqtt+nodered.

Yes but there are USB Zigbee dangles that will serve this need. You don't need another box and power supply, there are multiple brands to choose from, and no cloud account or goddamn SMS confirmation needed.

All except their new wifi connected ones... called Wiz.. watch out for those, much more affordable but really crappy app/setup situation.

Wiz bulbs use ESP-NOW (so that the Wiz remote can communicate with them). They also have an ESP-WROOM-02 inside (a package integrating an ESP-8266EX).

The fact that they use ESP-NOW means they can be controlled (theoretically) by any ESP* that has ESP-NOW support. So far, folks have only managed to go the other way—to intercept remote key presses [0]—but I imagine it won’t be long before they suss out control of the bulbs.

[0]: https://github.com/jesserockz/wizmote-esphome

Also the wiz bulbs have one feature that most others don't have: they get their last state back after a power outage. If there's one thing you don't want, it's a full bright room after a brownout in the middle of the night!

All Hue lights have this option. You can select different power-on behaviours. "Power loss recovery" is the setting you are describing. It stays off if it was off, and turns back on if it was on.

The default is "Warm white, full brightness", probably mostly to avoid confused people sending back bulbs because they flipped the switch ON and the bulb remained dark. Since traditionally that meant a failed bulb.

Those WiZ bulbs have actually been pretty reliable for me in the few years I’ve had them. Pretty early on I set them up to be controlled by Home Assistant [1], and they are on par with my other Hue devices in terms of performance (maybe not a 100% match in brightness, but close enough). Definitely worth their much cheaper price to me.

[1] https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/wiz/

can you still set up direct connection between a switch and a light which would work even if the hub is down?

All zigbee devices require a coordinator. It can be a raspberry pi or any other hardware/software with the radio, but it does have to be powered up.

So how do the Hue light switches work?

Hue light switches (well, the ones I have) simply stick on the wall with no wiring.

The _real_ light switch is permanently on, and the _hue_ light switch sends a beacon to the hub to turn the configured lights on/off (the light bulb socket is always-on)

No, some switchers and dimmers can also control lights without a hub present. Some products come as a paired bulb and switch, with only an optional suggestion that you later extend into the ecosystem.

Not all, IKEA Trådfri works fully hub-less by default.

TIL I can bind my remotes to my Hue bulbs, and they work without the coordinator.

This is not true. Look into Zigbee binding, it works when the coordinator is offline.

I'm using that as a backup solution in my house. All lights are zigbee, permanently powered, normally most are controlled automatically by presence sensors. But I have a couple of Zigbee remotes in a box that are bound directly to the lights to use in case my home automation system is down.

I'd modify my comment if I could. Bound some remotes to some hue bulbs, proving myself wrong.

Yes! This is called binding in zigbee parlance. I have a couple of ikea bulbs and switches and, if memory serves me, you can bind up to 10 bulbs to a single switch.