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Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by daniel_iversen on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:38PM (#37550022)
I think I read somewhere recently that the majority of Americans were in favour of stricter gun reforms, yet no real change I laws seem to happen and all the current presidential candidates over in the US seems to not even dare touch the subject. I find it reprehensible and puzzling how they’ve got this weird relationship with guns, but it’s interesting how often people are using a certain interpretation of their constitution as to why they need all those guns, or thinking that it’s the safest option that everyone has guns to protect themselves against the “bad guys” than just making it really difficult for the average citizen to get a firearm.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by partitioned on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:40PM (#37550036)
It’s because we don’t have a choice. A stacked Supreme Court that says any gun law has to be a gun law that would’ve been cool in 1776 has made any progress impossible without violent revolution
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by oaththrowaway on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:52PM (#37550129)
If that were true, the NFA would be repealed (the legal ground for it was pretty shaky originally and somehow it has stood)
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by alistairSH on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:29PM (#37550405)
Laws don’t magically get repealed. Somebody has to challenge it in court and show that it damages them/infringes in their rights. The NFS might fail if challenged (I don’t think it’s been challenged since Bruen), given the Bruen decision. But it’s not in the GOP’s interest to find a challenge, as that would almost certainly definitely turn off swing voters.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by partitioned on Monday September 18, 2023 @06:43AM (#37554487)
It is true, read the opinion. Clarence Thomas wrote it, which might help it make sense.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by netsharc on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:48PM (#37550094)
Seems like, just with many issues in the US, it's become another "The other side is against it, so we're for it!" problem... "Our kids are getting shot up in school, but the Democrats want to ban guns, so we're pro guns, there must be other solutions! Maybe Ivermectin also creates bullet-proof kids!".

The opposition also becomes saboteurs because any wins they give the ruling party means the ruling party gets to look better, and hell no, we can't have that, we have to destroy them!

Funnily enough when lockdowns started, the billions of bailout got bipartisan support. It seems like both sides knew a hungry populace would go for their heads, whatever the label after their name is. EDIT: then again, Dems are a more conscionable bunch (which makes fighting against a win-by-whatever-means-possible bunch hard), they knew people needed the money. The hypocrisy was GOP saying money doesn't grow on trees, until it does...

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by CoastalCoder on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:56PM (#37550166)
> Seems like, just with many issues in the US, it's become another "The other side is against it, so we're for it!" problem...

I'm confused by your comment. Your main thesis is worded as though it applies to all U.S. political groups, but the rest of your post seems specifically anti-Republican.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by netsharc on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:00PM (#37550193)
At the moment I can't think of Democrats sabotaging things that would be good for the American public to benefit themselves politically; care to find examples for me? Then we can put the examples of Republicans doing that on one side of the scale, and the examples of Democrats doing that on the other side, and call them equally bad... ;-)
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by CoastalCoder on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:08PM (#37550252)
I could give some examples, but I think this would just devolve into an unproductive partisan fight.

(Which would be ironic, but I don't support either party.)

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by humanrebar on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:20PM (#37550761)
Democrats could reform specific legal immigration systems, for instance revamping the H1B program, to be less nonsensical. But the incentive is to lump that reform in with other kinds of immigration reform.

Same could be said about taking a more piecemeal and less legally inventive approach to healthcare reform back under the Obama administration. They passed exactly as much as they thought they could squeak through the legislative process. A plan with 2/3 consensus could have been pursued but they decided to burn all the political capital they could instead. Enter Trump shortly later... a "fighter".

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by oaththrowaway on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:01PM (#37550201)
Republicans only care about gun rights when Democrats are in office. Same with Democrats about abortion. Neither do anything to reinforce either right when they control a majority of the branches of government.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by gruez on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:22PM (#37550354)
>Neither do anything to reinforce either right when they control a majority of the branches of government.

Unfortunately "control a majority of the branches of government" isn't enough to get legislation passed. You need control of house, senate, and presidency. The senate is particularly difficult because of filibusterers, so you need 60% votes, not a simple majority.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by jasonladuke0311 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @09:32PM (#37551186)
Read: they aren’t willing to spend the political capital. Which shows how much they truly value the issue. Much easier to bolster the status quo. Bonus: when that issue is under attack, you can rally the troops by saying “see? They’re coming after us!”
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by netsharc on Monday September 18, 2023 @07:47AM (#37554925)
Obama said Sandy Hook was the worst day of his presidency, and his biggest regret was not being able to change US gun laws[1], being blocked by congress. He did spend a lot of the Dem's political capital in the first term fighting for better healthcare/Obamacare.

[1] https://www.skynews.com.au/world-news/united-states/former-p...

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by morkalork on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:57PM (#37550171)
You've probably seen it here first hand many times: knee-jerk contrarianism. It will be our undoing.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by ct0 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:50PM (#37550111)
There are 2 schools of thought on the constitution. Living constitutionalists believe that the constitutional adapts or changes and can be fluid based on "modern" beliefs and the interpretation changes to allow for that. Originalists believe the text is strict and not up for debate and that the contract of the constitution is fixed. Most of what we are seeing is based on these 2 ideas in conflict.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by masfuerte on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:55PM (#37550155)
That whole debate feels like a distraction. If the majority wants gun control don't debate the meaning of the text, amend it.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by CoastalCoder on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:01PM (#37550198)
The 2nd amendment falls within the Bill of Rights.

Maybe the "living document" view is the only obvious play, given past SCOTUS rulings?

N.B.: I've never studied law, so I may have no idea what I'm talking about.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by bentley on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:07PM (#37550240)
The Bill of Rights is just as amendable as the rest of the Constitution.

Witness the various efforts to “repeal Citizens United,” which often (always?) require amending the First Amendment.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by galangalalgol on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:06PM (#37550688)
You need a supermajority to amend it, and even if the 64% number in another post is accurate, you need a supermajority of elected representation, which don't map directly to population. Specifically, states that are less populous have the same number of senators, and typically are against more gun control. Lastly, even if you had a supermajority of representation favoring more gun control, you have to get them to agree on the same type of more gun control, so realistically you won't see an amendment until something well north of 80% favor more gun control.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by matheusmoreira on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:23PM (#37550784)
Some things shouldn't even be up to debate to begin with. It was never about number of deaths, it was always about basic human dignity. Without weapons, you are at the mercy of others. With weapons, you have power. I'd say not being a powerless subject of the powers that be trumps literally any number of deaths.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by brnaftr361 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @09:38PM (#37551224)
Just secede. The scale of the US doesn't make sense. The culture has many schisms. Give people who want guns their guns, give those that don't their peace of mind.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by chipsa on Monday September 18, 2023 @06:10AM (#37554276)
Living constitutionalism doesn't quite make sense to me, insofar as it means that the constitution means whatever we want it to say, which results in it not actually being a check on the government's powers. This isn't to say there isn't some ambiguity in the constitution, and that ambiguity can be beneficial. But the living constitution theorists tend to read more ambiguity in than actually exists.

This includes saying things like: constitutional review didn't exist until Marbury v Madison. This ignores that it was a thing under the various state constitutions, with it not being called out specifically, and that it falls naturally under the fact that SCOTUS has the power to decide all cases and controversies, and Stare Decisis combines with that to say that if SCOTUS decides one way on a constitutional issue, they'll continue to decide the same way on that issue, so if a lower court judge decides the other way, they'll get reversed when it gets appealed, probably summarily in a one line opinion of the Court.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by oaththrowaway on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:55PM (#37550152)
Most people that are in favor of stricter gun laws don't understand the current laws that already exist and just hear buzzwords like "gun show loophole"
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by maxerickson on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:05PM (#37550232)
Not really fair to throw that out there without articulating what you think it means to understand the current laws.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by oaththrowaway on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:42PM (#37550504)
If you ask most people if they support "background checks" you're going to find that almost all people support that, things change a bit when you explain the difference between the existing background checks and the proposed "universal background checks".

Most people don't understand the difference. And to be quite frank, the organizations running the polls might not understand either, or it's in their best interest to not explain

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by maxerickson on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:05PM (#37550678)
Polled pretty high when asked as "Do you think ___ is a good idea" and ___ was "Background checks for gun purchases at gun shows or other private sales."

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/22/743516166/npr-newshour-marist...

I thought you were maybe speaking more expansively though. Like what about people that think almost no one should privately own a pistol or whatever.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by defrost on Sunday September 17, 2023 @09:47PM (#37551265)
I'm in rural Australia and have several firearms, they're tools for feral animal control, my neighbour shoots ULR targets at 5,000 yards (not a typo), and 12 year olds can join a gun club.

(ie. recheck any odd notions you might have about gun bans in Australia)

Stricter gun laws, more complicated laws aren't the answer - simple clear uniform gun laws, equally reinforced will do the job.

Unfortuneately the very nature of the (un)United States seems predestined to never enact uniform laws wrt firearms let alone maintain an up to date central register of information etc.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by brobinson on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:58PM (#37550181)
You just need 38 states to agree to amend the Constitution and repeal the 2nd amendment.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by PopAlongKid on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:53PM (#37550603)
The problem is that a state with 1/60th the population of another state still gets the same say in the matter.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by brobinson on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:00PM (#37550644)
That is by design, though. Just because state A has a big population doesn't mean it gets to strongarm state B.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by humanrebar on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:22PM (#37550777)
Well, more like states themselves would matter relatively less. Politics would focus on Chicago and Atlanta more, Illinois and Georgia less.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by PopAlongKid on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:32PM (#37550831)
>That is by design

So low population state "strong-arming" the majority is OK? The design is poor, it is Tyranny by the minority.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by brobinson on Monday September 18, 2023 @02:59AM (#37553132)
Strawman. I never claimed or suggested what are you asserting.

The design appears to be working well looking over the 240 years since the US' Constitution was ratified. A broad consensus of the states, _not of the people in the US as a whole_, is required to effect large scale, national changes.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by chipsa on Monday September 18, 2023 @06:17AM (#37554315)
The intent is to avoid tyranny by the majority. And you don't even need a majority, depending on how things would have been written. If each state gets a vote proportional to it's population, you could have something pass with substantially less than a majority of the national population, just by convincing a majority of the population of the states that becomes a majority to vote a given way (just shy of 25% (50% of state votes controlled by 50% of the votes in the states)).

The intent is to make it changeable, but not too changeable. The constitution is the supreme law of the land, and it's not beneficial if it can be changed at a whim.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by chrisco255 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:25PM (#37550371)
I don't think it's true that a majority of Americans want stricter laws. We generally want more authority to carry without restriction, as seen in the rise of states that allow for concealed carry without a license. The laws are nonsensical, since there's many times more firearms in the country than people. Nevermind that we share a porous border with a country known for powerful drug cartels.

At any rate, I'm a 10th generation American, and the sense of responsibility for protecting life and liberty with firearms is deeply embedded in my culture. It's not weird, we're the oldest democracy for a reason, the people are armed and stubborn.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by notacoward on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:31PM (#37550418)
At this point, what state governors and legislatures do has little to do with what the people of that state - let alone of the country generally - want. Let's look at real data.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

57% think gun laws should be more strict.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/26/politics/cnn-poll-gun-laws/in...

This time it's 64%. Yes, it is true that Americans want stricter gun laws. Your made-up reasons why Americans oppose gun control are Not Even Wrong when in fact there is no such opposition.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by oaththrowaway on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:45PM (#37550530)
People typically don't understand the laws as they exist currently
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by chipsa on Monday September 18, 2023 @05:52AM (#37554170)
Majority of the population doesn't understand the gun laws that exist now. Democrat politicians advocate for laws that currently exist.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by PopAlongKid on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:46PM (#37550537)
>I don't think it's true that a majority of Americans want stricter laws.

The majority of Americans want fewer mass shootings of random individuals out in public.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by jasonladuke0311 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @09:28PM (#37551171)
Which politically viable law would mitigate this problem?
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by PopAlongKid on Monday September 18, 2023 @09:50AM (#37556107)
An extension of the "politically viable" law that was previously in place, the federal assault weapons ban.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by starttoaster on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:27PM (#37550385)
First, apologies for the wall of text. I started off thinking I was just going to write a few sentences and here we are.

This topic is a bit more complicated than an outside observer would be able to pick up on without perhaps doing a bit more research. One common misconception people from other countries seem to have is that all the change is being made at the federal level. In fact, quite a lot of legislation is produced from smaller jurisdictions, and gun legislature changes frequently, and becomes more strict over time especially in heavily populated areas like Chicago, Seattle, New York City, their respective counties, etc. Keep in mind, the US is larger geographically than all of Europe, so there's a lot of diversity in issues and ideals across the states.

Gun reforms at the federal level are complicated. There is a large portion of the US (at least geographically) that is vehemently against a gun reform, or additional legislature on the subject. And not that this conversation has been about the subject of a nationwide gun ban, but often enough that's where these conversations lead so I'll just take it there -- there's a real concern that a national ban of guns would increase the frequency of gun related violent crimes. Guns are such a large part of the culture here, and so many people have them, and would likely not return them in a ban scenario but rather hide them, that the people committing violent crimes would be more unopposed than ever. We would hope that the people committing such crimes wouldn't suddenly become more ambitious. Couple that concern with the general lack of confidence in our police force. Generally in an active shooter situation, the police are arriving on scene 5+ minutes after casualties have already started piling up. Or in the case of someone threatening your life, the police can't really do anything about it -- often your best bet is just to file a restraining order... which of course doesn't stop a person from assaulting you.

A common thread amongst gun advocates seems to also be that restricting the ability for law abiding citizens to acquire guns is not an effective counter to gun related crimes. If there's one thing that the Mexican drug cartel has made clear, it's that if there's a market for the trafficking of illegal objects, they can be smuggled en masse into the country and be sold to people that are clearly willing to break the law. I think this argument holds some merit, and I say "some" because of course there are gun crimes committed with legally acquired guns.

My disclaimer of bias is that I am a legal gun owner, but I am for gun control legislation. I am agreeable to things such as required universal background checks on gun purchases. Background checks are already required by the federal government for store gun sales, but background check requirements from private sales (person to person) vary from state to state. I am not against a national gun registry. I am not against the restriction of types of firearms that are used disproportionately to commit violent crimes as long as there is a probation period where the new restrictions are measured for efficacy. What I am personally against is what I see more commonly instituted, which is legislation that is purely reactionary and pushed by people with a lack of knowledge on the subject. I talk to too many people about gun control that are familiar with the terms "bump stocks" and "binary triggers" and wanted them banned, but they couldn't even tell me what these things were when asked. I talk to too many people that think I could just go to a gun store and buy a full auto machine gun, which is also false and would be federally illegal. This is just to say, gun control is a topic of much ignorance (from both sides of the fence.) I think it is equally ignorant to be universally against gun control measures, but unfortunately I think their ignorance is at least somewhat valuable in fighting off the ignorance from the other side. I wish that our elected officials were more likely to talk to experts on a topic before proposing what they might propose, but the unfortunate truth is that they don't, and often need reining in.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by bm3719 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:46PM (#37550919)
> I think it is equally ignorant to be universally against gun control measures

Someone "universally against gun control measures" here. I'd be interested in knowing how I'm as ignorant as people who want to regulate things based on scary buzzwords, vaguely describing items that they generally lack any knowledge of.

I'd assert it's possible to hold this position, yet also be quite well informed about the history, mechanics, laws, and social consequences surrounding firearms and their accessories. For example, one could simply consider retaining the individual agency that this part of the Bill of Rights has preserved for us as being of higher utility than any of the downsides that additional (or existing) legislation purports to address. My personal view is a bit more nuanced than that (in fact, I agree with most of your post), but wanted to point out that one could start with different base axioms/heuristics, examine the same data, and end up with a different end perspective via perfectly rational (i.e., non-ignorant) reasoning.

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by mbfg on Sunday September 17, 2023 @09:38PM (#37551226)
Should private citizens be allowed to own rocket launchers with munitions? This is a hyperbolic argument, but so is "universally against gun controls".
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by bm3719 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @10:34PM (#37551569)
It's already possible to do this, though with numerous, onerous restrictions (that I'd advocate against, obviously). For example, if you wanted to own a functional RPG launcher, that would be an NFA-registered DD, and each explosive projectile would be a separate additional NFA tax stamp. You'd also need an active FEL (Federal Explosives License). There's numerous other conditionals that apply, e.g., you wouldn't need the latter for inert projectiles for your RPG, or if the explosive charge was less that 0.25oz.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by starttoaster on Monday September 18, 2023 @04:41AM (#37553731)
I don't personally agree that it should be a lower vertical for a citizen to purchase an RPG with real explosive projectiles, but I think I understand your perspective at least. I just personally don't want to be carrying a 10mm pistol on my hip wondering if I'll even get a chance to draw before my skin melts off of my boiling body by an RPG explosion. Once the bad guys have RPGs, it suddenly seems a bit silly to carry anything else.
Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by icegreentea2 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:40PM (#37550481)
Well, it's cause a rounding error of Democrats aren't going to vote for an otherwise ok candidate if they don't support tougher gun control laws, while a non-rounding error of Republicans supports would probably not support a Republican candidate if they did support more gun control.

Put another way, I think it's fair to say that the majority of people who care about enacting stricter gun control, also do not put it in say... the top 5 issues, especially at a national level (loosening gun control laws might be otherwise). The converse position is true on the other side. I don't think there are many gun fans who would say... "repeal the NFA" as a top 5 'must have' position. But "national semi-auto ban"... well, that's like a top 5 position right there.

Put another way - would you have preferred Obama to enact ACA, or stricter gun control laws?

Re:Geographic ‘hot spots’ for cigarette and firearm deaths i... by oaththrowaway on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:47PM (#37550551)
Trump probably hates guns as much as Bloomberg but lots of republicans still love him