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Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by drug-freedom on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:21AM (#37543463)
Fentanyl needs to be made legal and sold at grocery stores. In 2-for-1 packs, fentanly+narcan, at affordable prices. Even better, subsidized prices for poor people which can't afford it.

That would solve the fentanyl problem, which is solely due to it being illegal and impure.

More generally, all drugs need to be decriminalized and sold at affordable prices and pharma-grade quality.

Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by roflc0ptic on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:34AM (#37543531)
I used to share a similar position until I realized: drugs are bad, actually, and there should be substantial friction in making them available to people.

Disincentivizing drug consumption is a good thing. The war on drugs obviously leads to some absurdities - e.g. drug cartels, unnecessary incarceration - and I much prefer the Portuguese model.

But making fentanyl in particular available in the grocery store would be bad; some substantial number of people would die who wouldn't have died otherwise. Some substantial number of people who would never have tried fentanyl would give it a try.

Some sensible balance between a free society and preventing people from e.g. leaving live landmines in their parking lots. Likewise, doing things which inevitably kill people/mess up their lives without active violence is still bad, and should be heavily discouraged.

Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by bloppe on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:59AM (#37543666)
Even the Portuguese model has had mixed success at best
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by devin on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:46AM (#37544008)
My understanding is that the Portuguese model was going along pretty well until fentanyl came along.
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by roflc0ptic on Sunday September 17, 2023 @09:58AM (#37545122)
I shared this understanding. I'd be curious to hear where GP's understanding differs.
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by danielbln on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:52AM (#37544049)
What led to your realization that "drugs are bad", and does that include all external consciousness altering substances? (caffeine, alcohol, nicotine, THC, and so on).
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by nerdponx on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:25AM (#37544318)
Can't speak for somebody else's post, but addiction ruins lives, not only yours but also possibly the people around you, and leads people to other criminal behavior.

It's perfectly legal to obtain and use alcohol for example, but alcoholism is an insidious evil disease.

Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by danielbln on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:52AM (#37544532)
Sure, yet you'll probably find no-one who is destroying lives (their own or others) for caffeine. THC is certainly a more mixed bag, but at the very least you will never die from it. So "drugs are bad" is just too much of a blanket term, and we should probably come up with better terminology that correctly reflects addiction potential and intrinsic and extrinsic damage. In addition, the illegal market shifts those dangers quite significantyl. Someone can take morphine for the rest of their lives with out much of any bodily harm, but in an illegal market it can be deadly quickly and procurement leads to much pain and harm. Last but not least, humanity will never not want to use drugs, no matter what we do, so we need to come up with harm reduction that is effective (which includes regulation, education and probably also includes doing away with prohibition).
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by roflc0ptic on Sunday September 17, 2023 @09:56AM (#37545103)
yeah, definitely. "Drugs are bad, actually" is decidedly an over simplification. For the record my drugs of choice are SSRIs, caffeine, and mushrooms.

Full agree with everything you're saying here. The less oversimplified realization I had: In the pros/cons of "Should drugs be fully legalized?" I was counting only the negative aspects of making drugs illegal, not the negative aspects of legalization. I expect others make this error too, so "drugs are bad, actually" is intended as a pithy corrective, less a broad ethical directive.

The specific causes of this realization: the accruing evidence of the downsides of THC, and the easy access of teenagers to extremely potent weed. The ditch weed I bought from Curtis behind The Globe coffee shop in high school simply had less potential for harm.

> we should probably come up with better terminology that correctly reflects addiction potential and intrinsic and extrinsic damage

Full agree. Really there are complex policy trade offs here. I don't pretend to know optimal solutions, and agree that arriving at optimal solutions is unlikely via an extremely polarized discourse.

Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday September 17, 2023 @11:15AM (#37545910)
It’s not binary.

Drugs that kill or otherwise destroy your life are very bad. Other drugs that don’t do that are probably much less bad, and we should allow things somewhere that fall under a line between not bad and very bad. Where that line exists is a matter of current debate.

Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by rwmj on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:28AM (#37543509)
Better to allow doctors to prescribe heroin maintenance. In fact this was tried in the UK back in the 1980s (and earlier) and is generally regarded as a success: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin-assisted_treatment
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by quonn on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:25AM (#37543492)
Not exactly. But generally making less harmful drugs legal would help - generally the more prohibition the stronger the drugs become.
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:55AM (#37544084)
Making all drugs legal to use makes sense to me. Criminalizing users only makes things worse. But make it illegal to sell, transport, possess in large quantities etc.
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by amanaplanacanal on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:07AM (#37544172)
How are drug users going to know what they are buying if they are illegal to sell? Dealers are putting fentanyl in cocaine nowadays.

It wouldn’t surprise me if a large number of fentanyl overdoses were by people who had no idea they were taking fentanyl at all.

Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:46AM (#37544480)
Decriminalizing drug use is intended to solve a different problem - that being throwing people in jail for being addicts is bad in a number of ways and consequences.

Making all drugs legal and available (with quality assurance) will (at least help) solve the problem you are talking about, but will at the same time create whole new problems that more and easier access to drugs will mean more people try and use them and then an increase in lives destroyed through addiction (and related consequences). My opinion is that would be worse.

Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday September 17, 2023 @11:20AM (#37545978)
Decriminalizing use basically decriminalizes selling as far as I can tell here in the northwest. Police and prosecutors can no longer threaten users with legal action to give up their dealers, and since buying is now low risk, dealing also becomes lower risk. I’ve seen people on the street looking for drugs and find them on my morning walks (they are pretty vocal when asking, and dealers aren’t shy about replying).
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @04:02PM (#37548795)
It would be easy to put out fake buyers to find the sellers. Sounds like lazy policing.
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by seanmcdirmid on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:01PM (#37549749)
It is hard to find police that can convincingly do unhoused drug addict well enough.
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by filoeleven on Sunday September 17, 2023 @12:49PM (#37547039)
There are test kits available that can show you what you have, including tests for fentanyl. It requires a bunch of different reagent tests if you bought a Mystery Powder that you want to ID. But if you were after MDMA, for example, and bought what’s claimed to be MDMA, you can test it with a specific reagent to confirm whether it is that or not, then test it with a fentanyl test strip to show if it’s free of that contaminant.

Dance Safe sets up tents at big festivals to do this kind of testing as a harm reduction service. They (and others) are trying to normalize the step of testing what you have before using it, and I think that’s a wise choice especially with fentanyl in the mix. I’d expect that with decriminalized use of “white powder” drugs, you’d see these kits become more readily available from smoke shops, maybe even pharmacies, instead of being something you have to search for online.

Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by xtracto on Sunday September 17, 2023 @10:58AM (#37545687)
The problem I see with criminalizing drugs (including sell, posses and transport) is that drug addicts and abuse is mainly a health issue.

There's an underlying reason why those people start consuming that shit. Same as with sugar/obesity/diabetes here in Mexico.

Once you make it ilegal, suddenly you created a criminal issue. You've created another problem for yourself and split your resources to fight both problems now.

I would rather prefer government/society focus only in the underlying health issue. And disappear the criminal issue by making it 100% legal.

Imagine if suddenly refined sugar became illegal in Mexico, suddenly the government would have to fight not only the obesity epidemic, but also the sugar trafficking criminals.

Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by slaw on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:24AM (#37543482)
I think it is the opposite. People are looking for fentanyl free drugs.
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by drug-freedom on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:29AM (#37543510)
I don't disagree. At your local grocery store you should have a drug aisle with cocaine, heroin, fentanyl, MDMA, mushrooms, all pharma-grade quality. So you would know exactly what you are getting.
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by ffgjgf1 on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:59AM (#37543673)
Maybe we could also have Futurama style euthanasia booths just outside the entrance?
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by vuln on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:02AM (#37543698)
Not a booth per se but you sign a few papers and you can be suicided within 30 days in Canada.
Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by hypertele-Xii on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:30AM (#37543893)
Medical assistance in dying (MAID)

The only difference to 'Medical assistance in addiction', is the former is much cheaper as the person won't need any help, ever.

Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by tgv on Sunday September 17, 2023 @06:46AM (#37543601)
> all drugs need to be decriminalized and sold at affordable prices and pharma-grade quality.

Sure, fuck the 20%-30% of the population who can't control their addiction and ruin the country in the process.

Re:How the fentanyl crisis' fourth wave has hit every corner... by vuln on Sunday September 17, 2023 @07:01AM (#37543688)
Makes it a lot easier to increase the government dependency pool by 20-30%.