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A comment on Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Sites Is Reshaping Beliefs.

Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by syndicatedjelly on Saturday September 16, 2023 @11:42AM (#37535776)
> One significant theological change that appeared to be underway within Himalayan Hinduism as a result of climate change was the transformation of the primary conception of the gods from those who bless to those who punish.

This is not a new view in Hinduism. There is a concept that the world goes through cycles and we are now in the end stage [Kali Yuga](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga)

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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by alephnerd on Saturday September 16, 2023 @11:46AM (#37535811)
No one talks about Kali Yug stuff in folk Hinduism in the Himalayan region. All that "Wikipedia Hinduism" stuff is weird esoteric content that everyday Hindus haven't heard about.

Source: am part of the Pahari diaspora

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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by unholythree on Saturday September 16, 2023 @12:27PM (#37536216)
It’s funny how shallow the understanding of everyday believers in religions frequently are. Whenever I read about historical Christian schisms especially really early ones during the Roman Empire, it occurs to me how so few of the modern faithful have any understanding or interest in these theological issues that caused so much bloodshed and tears.

The biggest bible thumper in Alabama probably hasn’t ever worried about if Christ was made of the same material substance as other aspects of the Trinity and if so, at what points, but that sort of thing can be geopolitical dynamite when the right elites fight over it.

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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by alephnerd on Saturday September 16, 2023 @12:35PM (#37536302)
Most people never had a deep theological understanding of religion.

Mass Literacy only became a thing in the 20th century.

There's a reason why folk religions and customs exist (eg. Folk saints in Mexico and Southern Europe, the entire Chinese Folk Religion, Pir Darghas and Dervishes in Islam, etc)

Also "Hinduism" is a broad term for general folk religious practices in the South Asian subcontinent. For example, in the Himalayan region I am from you will see people revere an Iranian origin Muslim preacher who came to the area in the 13th century (Lakhdatta) despite also being "Hindu" or "Sikh"

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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by OfSanguineFire on Saturday September 16, 2023 @12:46PM (#37536391)
The Wikipedia article for Lakhdatta is at “Syed Ahmad Sultan”.[0] Thanks for reminding me of him, I definitely saw his image hung in businesses in India whose proprietors otherwise seemed very Hindu or Sikh.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syed_Ahmad_Sultan

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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by alephnerd on Saturday September 16, 2023 @01:00PM (#37536521)
Yep. He's commonly revered in the Pir Panjal range. For some reason, Hazarajat, Derajat, Jammu, Half of Himachal, Gurdaspur District, and Sialkot area all revere him. Heck, even the traditional language in Swat (Torwali) before it became Pakhto speaking in the 19th century is intelligible for anyone who can speak a Western Pahari language (eg. Dogra, Hindko, "Pahari") after seeing my dad surprisingly understand a BBC documentary about the Swat insurgency back in the 2010s. I wanted to dig into the cultural connection a bit deeper in college, but the RoI on graduate education on Sociology or Anthropology ain't there
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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by selimthegrim on Saturday September 16, 2023 @02:16PM (#37537195)
My (Ahmedi) family is originally from Gurdaspur district, and while we had a picture of Nanak around, I don’t remember hearing about Syed Ahmad Sultan (although I have heard of him by the name of Sakhi Sarwar) but rzther Data Ganj Bakhsh, Hz. Khizr (especially), Bulleh Shah and the “Char Yaar”
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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by alephnerd on Saturday September 16, 2023 @02:27PM (#37537286)
Make sense!

Khwaja Khizr and Ganj Baksh are also venerated in my area - often at the same time with Sakai Sarwar (eg. This random whatsapp forward - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XFZuubbGNXQ?feature=share)

By Gurdaspur, I meant the undivided Gurdaspur division, which included the hill regions of what's now Pathankot District in East Punjab and I think some of northern regions in West Punjab

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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by selimthegrim on Saturday September 16, 2023 @06:11PM (#37539274)
You are thinking of Shakargarh tehsil which was detached from Gurdaspur and given to Pak (Narowal)

NB: casteist but still funny - https://www.facebook.com/RaahEHayatOfficial/videos/457120242...

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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by alephnerd on Saturday September 16, 2023 @10:21PM (#37540854)
> thinking of Shakargarh tehsil

Yep! Exactly this! A lot of Paharis immigrated down the hills to that area in the 19th century with the canal colonies. Similar thing in Jhelum as well!

> NB: casteist but still funny

Lol. Gotta love Desi social media. Our clickbait is what unites us

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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by OfSanguineFire on Saturday September 16, 2023 @12:43PM (#37536365)
There are enough Bible thumpers in the USA at least vaguely familiar with early Christological disputes, that non-trinitarian denominations like Oneness Pentecostalism[0] were founded. But otherwise, presumably there isn’t much interest in those disputes, whether because sola Scriptura denominations would claim that mainstream Trinitarian views were already set out in Scripture and therefore no need to study the later debates, or because the patristic literature is written by obvious Byzantine Orthodox and sometimes in very atticizing Greek, both of which would make American non-mainline-Protestants uncomfortable.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism

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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by svieira on Saturday September 16, 2023 @01:07PM (#37536573)
> hasn’t ever worried about if Christ was made of the same material substance as other aspects of the Trinity

And if he does, he's asking the wrong question. "Substance" does not imply "matter" in Platonic, Aristotelian, or Scholastic philosophy. The heretical belief that God is made of matter is a distinct heresy from the heresies concerning the procession of the Trinity, which are themselves distinct from heresies which deny the existence of the Trinity.

Catholic doctrine is full of distinctions, the understanding of which are not necessary for salvation (praise be).

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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by syndicatedjelly on Sunday September 17, 2023 @01:06AM (#37541700)
One could say the same of followers of "scientism". Every belief system has it's know-nothing followers who just parrot whatever they hear.
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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by samuraijack on Saturday September 16, 2023 @01:26PM (#37536747)
The concept of Kalyug is hardly esoteric. While I am not from that region, it is bit of a surprise to hear that.
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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by alephnerd on Saturday September 16, 2023 @02:36PM (#37537363)
If I'm at a puja for a local devta, Kalyug stuff doesn't come up. When you're praying to Baba Balak Nath, Jwala Ji, or Digu Wazir, stuff like that doesn't come up. It's a newish cultural import.
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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by syndicatedjelly on Saturday September 16, 2023 @10:22PM (#37540860)
What's an "everyday" Hindu?
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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by ChatGTP on Saturday September 16, 2023 @12:13PM (#37536071)
Kali Yuga began 5,124 years ago and has 426,876 years left as of 2023 CE.[11][12][13] Kali Yuga will end in the year 428,899 CE.[14][b]

Not sure how long humans are supposed to be involved but that’s quite a long time!

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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by kelipso on Sunday September 17, 2023 @08:56PM (#37550979)
Agricultural revolution and its consequences...
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Re:Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Site... by jiofj on Saturday September 16, 2023 @01:06PM (#37536562)
Also known as Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times
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