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Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by saulrh on Sunday March 25, 2012 @03:27AM (#3751966)
Ensuring that scores are reported correctly won't even start to fix our educational system. We don't need to cut down on cheating; rather, we need to realize that more data is not better data, that teachers know a lot more about teaching than we do, that the teachers were doing a hell of a lot better before we started measuring them, and that we should just let them do their jobs.
Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by yummyfajitas on Sunday March 25, 2012 @06:52AM (#3752268)
...teachers know a lot more about teaching than we do, that the teachers were doing a hell of a lot better before we started measuring them...

How do you know this? Even in principle, how could you know this?

To me, it sounds like "I was such a good government contractor before they started auditing me and making sure I actually delivered what was promised."

Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by saulrh on Sunday March 25, 2012 @09:21AM (#3752515)
There are ways to evaluate teachers other than running tests. In particular, I was in about ninth grade when NCLB hit, and its effects started rolling in in 11th grade. I was sufficiently aware of the situation to observe. It was a lot more like "The government contractors building my bridge were meeting all their deadlines until their managers started demanding documentation in triplicate for every nail they hammered in."
Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by tokenadult on Sunday March 25, 2012 @09:54AM (#3752597)
There are ways to evaluate teachers other than running tests.

Could you kindly provide some specific examples? It would be especially helpful for the discussion here if you could provide some citations to scholarly publications on other ways to evaluate teachers.

Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by yummyfajitas on Sunday March 25, 2012 @09:22AM (#3752518)
Without measurement, how can you know objectives were being met?
Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by saulrh on Sunday March 25, 2012 @09:41AM (#3752564)
Again, more measurement is not better measurement. I spent fifty hours a week in a classroom for nearly twelve years. Quite a bit of that was watching my fellow classmates struggle to understand things that I'd learned from the textbook at the beginning of the year. You get pretty good at it.

Also, around 10th grade, every single teacher in the entire school rewrote their syllabus. From there on, the ones with appropriate degrees in math and science - you know, the ones that actually knew what they were doing - complained bitterly about how hard it was to teach both the stuff that mattered and the stuff that was on the test.

Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by DanBC on Sunday March 25, 2012 @09:54AM (#3752598)
> I spent fifty hours a week in a classroom for nearly twelve years.

Where?

Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by yummyfajitas on Sunday March 25, 2012 @10:21AM (#3752659)
Again, more measurement is not better measurement.

Again, how do you know objectives were being met? Please clearly state your evaluation procedure.

...complained bitterly about how hard it was to teach both the stuff that mattered and the stuff that was on the test.

I've made similar complaints - Calc syllabi suck. Too many stupid algebra tricks, too little conceptual reasoning. This is a problem with the syllabus, not the test.

All the test does is reveals when you stop doing your job and teach whatever you feel like, rather than what you are being paid to teach.

Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by aestetix on Sunday March 25, 2012 @05:09PM (#3753822)
Actually, I'd suggest the tests only reveal when the teacher stops teaching to the test. Also, it's really not fair to hold the teacher's job ransom and say that if they don't teach the way the test demands, they should lose their job. How about giving them the freedom to teach based on what they feel is good for their students?
Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by DanBC on Sunday March 25, 2012 @05:16PM (#3753844)
> How about giving them the freedom to teach based on what they feel is good for their students?

The controversy about teaching children to read using either 'whole words' or 'phonics' (and sub-forms of phonics) is a nice example of some teachers not working to an evidence base and causing harm to their students.

Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by saulrh on Sunday March 25, 2012 @05:45PM (#3753941)
Even if they aren't teaching from an evidence base and from proper research, they're better at defining requirements than the legislators simply because they're the ones in the classroom and observing their students' progress. I assume you're a programmer, so I'll reframe the question: would you rather design your APIs yourself or have the CEO of your large corporation do it for you?
Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by DanBC on Sunday March 25, 2012 @05:51PM (#3753959)
You know that doctors say that this treatment works, because they see it works.

And then someone does a double-blind controlled trial and it turns out that treatment is useless.

(http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259)

Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by tomjen3 on Sunday March 25, 2012 @05:12AM (#3752143)
How do we know the were doing a good job before? Heck most of the teachers i had in school were okay, but there were a significant minority who could have been replaced with a doorknob and improved how much we learned.
Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by saulrh on Sunday March 25, 2012 @05:35AM (#3752173)
I've had bad teachers before, and I've had good teachers before. What I've observed is that the tests tend to prevent the good teachers from being good without really detecting the bad teachers. A few of the best teachers I ever had were forced to waste a month ticking boxes on the "get ready for the test" list, a month that they could have spent teaching things that were actually useful. Meanwhile, the bad teachers went on doing exactly the same thing they were doing before, because even a doorknob could have checked off "students must have studied the following important people from the civil rights movement".
Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by tomjen3 on Sunday March 25, 2012 @07:01AM (#3752279)
That indicates to me that we need better tests, not to give up on tests. Would a reasonable test be "is this child learning at a faster rate than we can otherwise expect it to statistically"?
Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by saulrh on Sunday March 25, 2012 @09:24AM (#3752521)
Sure; that's exactly what I advocated in a comment on the last thread. Basically, we need to stop ranking students against a fixed list of objectives and go back to ranking them against each other. Give students space to expand rather than chaining them to the common-denominator child in rural Alabama.
Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by viraptor on Sunday March 25, 2012 @05:28AM (#3752166)
This reminds me of the standard problem off measuring programmers'' productivity. If some high level manager gets to do what they think would work, you end up with something like counting lines, or bug fixes per day without any regard for the bug size. You'll get measured that way against the other teams/members. Isn't that pretty close to what you're describing? Maybe it's a similar issue? Maybe people are just fooling themselves that you can reduce this problem to any meaningful single dimension?
Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by ilaksh on Sunday March 25, 2012 @03:33AM (#3751977)
I agree about more data is not better data. I get the impression that its not just that they are doing standardized tests. I mean I remember doing quite a few California tests when I was growing up (I was born in 1977 so this was before No Child Left Behind).

But from what I hear, they have gone completely overboard with the standardized tests so that it takes up all of the time.

I don't see anything wrong with having a few simple standard tests to cover some important things. I think it is actually important to have some kind of holistic measurement and analysis and guidelines.

But clearly there are too many tests, too comprehensive, and the attempt to mandate actions based on the tests is repressive and even destructive rather than helpful.

Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by einhverfr on Sunday March 25, 2012 @04:40AM (#3752089)
I think, as you seem to point out, the real problem is trying to reduce teachers to factory work, where these tests are sort of quality assurance after the fact. It's important to get back to the idea of hand crafted education, rather than trying to mass produce it, and work on hiring good teachers, and turning them loose.
Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by DanBC on Sunday March 25, 2012 @08:01AM (#3752356)
> that teachers know a lot more about teaching than we do

Teachers think they know what's right, but without good quality research (large samples and preferably some blinding) they cannot know what methods are more effective.

Re:Cheating our children: Suspicious school test scores acro... by mackyinc on Sunday March 25, 2012 @04:36AM (#3752082)
I agree to you, just let the teachers do their job.