And they are humble. They know their state, the flaws in their language and the long problematic history they have.

They cherish their languages but are not fanatics.

PHP has its fair share of snobbery as well. Non-framework devs look down on Symfony, who in turn look down on Laravel devs, and everybody looks down on WordPress devs.

I started out as a symfony snob. Got sick of writing java in PHP so I picked up laravel. Got sick of having to modify my code every time Taylor huffed some new shit so I started building things using WordPress.

It's so refreshing knowing that my websites auto update themselves and I never have to update them unless there is a legitimate reason to do so.

Backwards compatibility is the ONLY thing I care about in a framework. Life's too short to babysit some frameworks ideas of how my code should work ten years after building the damn thing.

Symfony and Laravel have their proper usages.

I used to be Symfony snob too but tried Laravel and I definitely see its strengths.

Laravel was not the right choice with our homegrown, non-framework app, with an existing schema.

Yea, don't debate that. I just personally have no tolerance for the behaviour of these framework developers and the level of work they impose on their users.

For a business that has engineers to manage this day to day it's less of an issue. For building things you want to live online untouched for a decade it's just not an option.

Laravel is nice to build stuff fast in one particular way. It's awful to maintain and heaven forbid you have a different idea about how things should be done.

Every language does, I think it comes with the territory of any domain where fine details matter. The trick is to cultivate your own opinions and approach to excellence, but recognize there are a lot of different things to optimize for, and no one likes a comic-book guy attitude.

> and everybody looks down on WordPress devs.

Maybe because they have been actively sabotaging progress and dissing those pushing for progress? gophp5 in 2008 pushed everyone but Wordpress off PHP4 and some Wordpress core committers as recently as 2017 have called gophp5 an "abysmal failure" despite it was anything but.

I would look down on any group not using a framework, or rolling their own.