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A comment on "Lighten up". Parent comment

Re:"Lighten up" by Tichy on Wednesday March 21, 2012 @05:56PM (#3736946)
As a supplement to those posts, I would like a set of instructions about how to talk to women properly (and women with low cut dresses especially). I mean it seems possible that the "I know where I'm sitting" guy was simply crap at giving compliments, rather than a sexist jerk. Attraction between men and women exists, and it is even vital for the survival of the human race for the time being. So it has to be dealt with somehow.
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Re:"Lighten up" by reneherse on Thursday March 22, 2012 @12:56AM (#3738458)
How to talk to women in the workplace: Treat them first and foremost as persons, not as sexual beings, attractive or otherwise. Imagine she's your sister, your mom, a CEO or Secretary of State, and proceed normally. Be a gentleman.

And I'd say the "person-first" rule goes for how to treat other men, too.

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Re:"Lighten up" by Tichy on Thursday March 22, 2012 @05:12AM (#3738990)
I am not attracted to my sister or my mom, though. Sure you could say, just don't be attracted to co-workers, but it just isn't realistic (see other comments, 18% of committed couples met at work).
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Re:"Lighten up" by reneherse on Thursday March 22, 2012 @01:42PM (#3740968)
The best rule is to just keep it to yourself (at least until you're certain the attraction is reciprocated). Don't act on it, don't let it color your interactions or conclusions about her competence, good or bad. Its important to not objectify your co-workers, as that is the starting point of all sexism and sexual harrassment. And incidentally, since attractive women receive questionable attention all the time, your gentlemanly behavior will make you stand out, possibly allowing you to become friends or more, if thats what is mutually wanted. You will also grow as a human being.

i'd write more but it's too tortuous on my iphone. if you you've got other questions or need advice, feel free to shoot me an email.

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Re:"Lighten up" by Tichy on Thursday March 22, 2012 @07:26PM (#3742591)
Thanks, I was asking more in general - I think many people could need that advice. Sadly, I rarely ever have female colleagues. But I am also not in the dating scene anymore, so it is not really a problem for me to ignore attractive colleagues atm.
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Re:"Lighten up" by omgsean on Wednesday March 21, 2012 @06:27PM (#3737099)
>Attraction between men and women exists, and it is even vital for the survival of the human race for the time being. So it has to be dealt with somehow.

Not at work.

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Re:"Lighten up" by jrockway on Wednesday March 21, 2012 @08:06PM (#3737514)
You have to deal with it by not taking action based on the things you think. That's why you're a professional writing software and not an animal out hunting for scraps of food.

(Humanity is defined by emotions, particularly physical attraction. But it's also defined by rational thought; not doing whatever you think your emotions want you to do. So if you're in a meeting with some attractive coworkers, use your rational mind to keep your comments to yourself. There are lots of people on Earth and there will be other opportunities for reproduction.)

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Re:"Lighten up" by Tichy on Thursday March 22, 2012 @05:10AM (#3738987)
As I said in my other comment: in theory I agree, don't date at work is good advice. The reality is that 18% of committed couples met at their work place, though (that is the first number Google found, at least).

Also, who says that I want to work as a "programming drone" - why do you get to tell me what a professional has to be like? What if I don't like it? I am not arguing for the right to leer at breasts at work, but I don't like the other extreme of being a completely rational machine that you describe either. I am not a robot. (OK, I am a robot, but a very advanced biological one).

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Re:"Lighten up" by Tichy on Thursday March 22, 2012 @04:44AM (#3738943)
Well it is common advice to not date in the work place. The reality is that a lot of couples meet in the work place, though. II just googled and found http://www.savvysugar.com/More-Couples-Meet-Work-Than-Colleg... which claims 18% of committed couples met at their work place, va 14% who met at college (which is actually a kind of work place, too).

So while it sounds like good advice on the surface to not date colleagues, it just isn't realistic.

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Re:"Lighten up" by omgsean on Thursday March 22, 2012 @11:32AM (#3740146)
How many of those relationships do you think were sparked by public sexist comments during a meeting? You're veering dangerously into "beep boop" territory.
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Re:"Lighten up" by Tichy on Thursday March 22, 2012 @11:40AM (#3740192)
What is "beep boop" territory?

I am aware that many people will choose to misunderstand me. I am not saying sexism at work should be tolerated so that couples can form. I am saying that attraction at the workplace is real and people need help learning how to deal with it. The "leary guy" might have been sexist, or simply socially inept.

If the definition of sexism includes "acknowledging the existence of boobs" then there is no hope, though.

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Re:"Lighten up" by omgsean on Thursday March 22, 2012 @03:49PM (#3741582)
"beep boop" territory is what happens when you try to reduce human interactions to evolutionary psychology or "if..then..else" statements.

>If the definition of sexism includes "acknowledging the existence of boobs" then there is no hope, though.

"Hey, look at the boobs on our sole female co-worker!" is sexism. So I guess there's no hope.

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Re:"Lighten up" by hythloday on Wednesday March 21, 2012 @07:35PM (#3737406)
I would like a set of instructions about how to talk to women properly

Like you would talk to men. Simple.

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Re:"Lighten up" by burgerbrain on Wednesday March 21, 2012 @10:41PM (#3738091)
No way in hell. HR would slaughter me.
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Re:"Lighten up" by nickolai on Thursday March 22, 2012 @03:43AM (#3738815)
They may consider torturing you first.

"Oh come on, my grandma/dog/goldfish would write better code!!!"

This would be a totally acceptable jab among guys, yet saying this to a female coworker would immediately be misinterpreted as "woman are bad at coding" promptly followed by the full wrath of the HR gender equality team.

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Re:"Lighten up" by hythloday on Thursday March 22, 2012 @06:14AM (#3739122)
Well, my advice stands, though if you're actively working to undermine your male colleague's confidence in their ability you might consider changing that. But if you insist on treating male and female colleagues differently then you spend your entire day saying to women, "you don't belong here and you never will". If you're comfortable with that and your manager's comfortable with that, please give me the name of your company so I can avoid it.
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Re:"Lighten up" by burgerbrain on Thursday March 22, 2012 @03:08PM (#3741402)
"if you're actively working to undermine your male colleague's confidence in their ability"

You don't have a solid grasp on male-to-male communication in the US workplace. Please keep in mind that perhaps your culture is different.

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Re:"Lighten up" by hythloday on Friday March 23, 2012 @04:52AM (#3744220)
This reads to me like "you clearly don't have a solid grasp of how women live in Saudi--of course it's necessary for their dignity to prevent them to drive". Do you see it differently? I definitely don't see that hypothesizing about my inexperience of working in the US (where I worked for 3 months in 2006) answers my point.
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Re:"Lighten up" by burgerbrain on Friday March 23, 2012 @04:20PM (#3747048)
If you think how men treat other men in the US workplace is at all comparable to how men treat women in Saudi, then you are fucking insane. Men poking fun of other men is NOT a human rights issue.

Cheeky insults, (which "my goldfish codes better than you" OBVIOUSLY is) are not attempts to "undermine your male colleague's confidence in their ability". If you think that is not the case, then you are obviously completely out of touch with male to male interaction in the US.

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Re:"Lighten up" by Tichy on Thursday March 22, 2012 @06:00AM (#3739096)
Somebody has to make a move eventually, though, or else no sex, no kids and mankind would die out. I agree the work place does not seem the best starting point, but in the real world it turns out to be (see other posts, 18% of committed couples met at work).
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Re:"Lighten up" by hythloday on Thursday March 22, 2012 @06:19AM (#3739133)
Do you really ask women out by walking up to them with bulging eyes and saying "wow, that top makes your tits look great"? There are sexist and non-sexist ways to ask a woman at work out. The non-sexist ways give her the ability to easily decline and not feel bad--much like you'd treat a man, in fact. "Would you like to go for a drink on Friday" is something you might say to someone of either gender, no?
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Re:"Lighten up" by Tichy on Thursday March 22, 2012 @06:31AM (#3739154)
I wouldn't say it, but to be honest, I would definitely think it. And if you say you wouldn't, I call you a liar. Also, I am lucky because I am in a steady relationship and don't have to worry about dating anymore.

What I am going on about is that the "I want to stare at your tits guy" might not be sexist so much as simply inept at dealing with attraction and dating. Calling him a sexist jerk is not going to resolve the issue.

It is not excusing the behavior, but seeking understanding and solutions.

Of course sexist jerks also do exists and have to be dealt with in another way. Also, believe it or not, but if such things go on at a work place, it might make men feel uncomfortable, too. Personally I don't enjoy sexist jokes.

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