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Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by BossingAround on Sunday August 27, 2023 @11:13AM (#37283453)
> If some employer is paying on-site workers 20% more than the exact same work for the same company remotely, then I'll believe that they truly want people to be on-site

That would effectively mean increasing salary of the current employees that choose to go to the office by 20%. Alternatively, that'd mean reducing salary of current employees that choose not to.

Either way, that seems like a horribly inefficient way to deal with the problem. Most companies choose much more subtle approaches, such as:

0) Stop hiring remote -> build a new workforce that does not expect remote conditions

1) Mandate RTO (just like Meta, Amazon, Google, Apple, and others did)

2) Start putting people who do not respect RTO on PIP, or on some other bullshit process that'll threaten to fire those that do not conform while giving you, the company, enough time to replace them with new hires.

3) Slowly and silently follow through 2) until remote is a thing for <10-15% of the workforce.

This gives the company a number of advantages, such as:

1) Not appearing evil

2) Not dealing with disruptions caused by mass employee exit

Companies that really want RTO don't have to do it in a "big bang" way. Such companies would rather do it silently while telling you how they value your opinions on what the future workplace policy should be.

They'll get away with it IIF point 0 is possible. I hope it is not, but who knows.

Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by zer8k on Sunday August 27, 2023 @11:29AM (#37283600)
My company had a mandatory come-to-office for every but people who are truly remote. For the truly remote (e.g. me) they cut all fringe benefits. They also have gone out of their way to find subtle ways to rub it in our face: expensive lunches and dinners for people who come in, all "fun events" happen locally and to attend you have to pay your own way, etc. So remote workers like me are second-class citizens. I've even heard "remote work will hurt your ability to advance in the company".

They'll never stop hiring remote. Remote workers will simply become second class citizens at a company with fewer benefits for the same work. Most people, including myself, will happily sacrifice beer coolers and ping pong for the privilege of never having to deal with an office again.

I do feel bad for people who are coming into the office. I hope those fun events and food are worth the gas money, increased risk, and reduced health going into the office entails.

Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by spankalee on Sunday August 27, 2023 @11:41AM (#37283712)
increased risk, and reduced health?
Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by zer8k on Sunday August 27, 2023 @11:44AM (#37283752)
Simply getting in your car and driving to work increases your all-cause mortality significantly. I'd wager more people die in car accidents on their way to work than DUIs. Anecdotally I've been nearly killed several times because someone was late for work and ran a red light, cut me off, etc. Road rage incidents increase because you have to be in the office by X hour.

Reduced health, of course, because of driving. You can also consider most employers aren't going to stock a full kitchen so you're probably eating more fast food and garbage snacks. You're more sedentary because you typically can't walk out of the office for a quick trip to the gym, etc. Oh, also, your sleep is probably worse because you have to be up 2 hours early to get ready for work and drive.

Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by kaylynb on Sunday August 27, 2023 @12:09PM (#37284010)
Most people don't realize how dangerous automobiles really are. Accidents are one of the leading causes of death in the US until people get to be 45+ and cancer starts overtaking it. Even in 2020-2021 CDC data that probably has less people driving than usual: https://wisqars.cdc.gov/data/lcd/home. One thing I liked about living in a city was being able to walk to work. I'm reluctant to work anywhere I have to commute because the last few years have likely significantly reduced my chance of accidental death purely due to remote work.

In some ranges it's the leading cause, although overdose deaths sometimes win out. It's kind of absurd that this isn't brought up in articles about remote work. Newspapers run articles about gun violence every day despite it being wwaaaayyyy less likely than dying in an automobile accident, but the far greater danger of commuting is almost never discussed.

Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by chrismcb on Sunday August 27, 2023 @10:05PM (#37288824)
"one"of. "Accidental" death is there leading cause of death. But that doesn't mean "car accidents" it just means accidents. For the 35-44 rage 22k died from poisoning and 6k died from car accidents. It is still a lot, but not the #1 cause of death. About 42k out of near 3 million deaths are due to car accidents (each year)
Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by genocidicbunny on Sunday August 27, 2023 @11:52AM (#37283841)
Even if you're not driving to get to work, simply going outside and taking any form of transport (even walking) increases your risk.

And for most people, if you can reasonably walk to work, you're probably going to be exposed to all sorts of particulates from the roadway you're likely walking along. Exhaust fumes, rubber particulates..etc, none are exactly health-boosters.

Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by spankalee on Sunday August 27, 2023 @02:19PM (#37285260)
You don't have to drive to work, some of us walk and use transit.

If the reason to not go into the office is to not risk some accident out in the world, then you might as well also not go to stores, out to restaurants, or movies or shows. You shouldn't even go to a park, and certainly never travel just for fun. Just stay in your house at all times.

That sounds like a horrible way to live to me. There are other reasons to prefer WFH, but fear of the world shouldn't be one of them, IMO.

Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by kthejoker2 on Sunday August 27, 2023 @02:44PM (#37285459)
This is truly amazingly poor reasoning rhetoric. Your entire argument is two straw men.

Fallacy 1: I can work from home; I can't see a movie on the big screen or visit a park from home. Your analogy has improper premises.

Fallacy 2: Many offices, work locations, and entire cities are not walkable and have poor transit. This is your first straw man argument.

Fallacy 3: The activities you listed are presumed to be more enjoyable than driving into work, so the cost benefit risk profile for traveling to them is different.

Fallacy 4: Most driving to work is done simultaneously with others aka in much heavier traffic, significantly increasing the risk of commuting vs other driving.

Fallacy 5: Work driving will occur much more frequently and over typically much longer periods of time than the events you listed. As your risk of accidents rise proportionally to time on the road, these again are not equally weighted.

In short: nobody with a driving-only commute who does not want to RTO is also saying they don't want to go to parks or restaurants or travel. This is your second straw man.

Please bring logical arguments and not straw men.

Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by johnnyanmac on Sunday August 27, 2023 @09:00PM (#37288418)
They aren't trying to disprove your argument, simply stating that "increase health concerns" is a poor argument to begin with. You can agreed with a stance and disagree with the arguments.

>Most driving to work is done simultaneously with others aka in much heavier traffic, significantly increasing the risk of commuting vs other driving.

In most major US cities, there honestly isn't much difference anymore. There's always too much traffic, even at the slowest parts of the day.

Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by zer8k on Sunday August 27, 2023 @02:48PM (#37285498)
> There are other reasons to prefer WFH, but fear of the world shouldn't be one of them, IMO.

I'm not afraid of the world. When I am not paid commensurate to the risk I won't take it. If they paid me for the transit time in from home to the office and back I'd be worth $50-60k more. It gets worse with pagerduty. You're on-call and can't take an hour to get home lest there be an incident to need to respond to. So now you're stuck at the office until late at night doing unpaid labor. Driving home tired is a lot of fun too, aint it!

The "drive to work" situation is not only dangerous it's outright wage theft. Why should I want to collaborate.

Anyway, nice strawman.

Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by spankalee on Sunday August 27, 2023 @06:31PM (#37287262)
The problems you stated are with driving and long commutes, not going to an office.
Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by johnnyanmac on Sunday August 27, 2023 @08:57PM (#37288391)
>I'm not afraid of the world. When I am not paid commensurate to the risk I won't take it.

Do you need to be paid to go to the grocery store or is everything Insta carted to you because you care about your health more than finances?

It's just such a werid argument to make. It is more convinent, but let's not act like the act of getting outside (an act our industry is stigmatized against) is endangering our health.

Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by johnnyanmac on Sunday August 27, 2023 @08:44PM (#37288302)
>I hope those fun events and food are worth the gas money, increased risk, and reduced health going into the office entails.

I just want fellow passionate coworkers to talk to. I slightly prefer in-office, but if the company is too far and the pay is good it's not the worst sacrifice to make.

My location is most important: nothing short of some crazy $500k salary is gonna get me moving into Silicon Valley. Even then, I'm lucky to own land; that much STILL isn't getting me a house out there.

Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by startupsfail on Sunday August 27, 2023 @11:44AM (#37283745)
The reality is, video conferencing gives you almost all of the benefits of being in office and of face to face communications. While efficiency of using meeting recordings and not being stuck wasting time at the meetings stays. You can cut away useless air travel, hotels costs, remove rush time traffic. And give employees more flexibility. Source global workforce efficiently.

Or you can try copying Google and Apple. Without having a $1B half-empty campus that is currently pretty pleasant to work at, because it is not crowded. The results will be very predictable.

Re:Remote Work Is Here to Stay, and Employers Aren’t Happy A... by read-burn-999 on Sunday August 27, 2023 @12:08PM (#37283993)
Wish Grindr's relatively new CEO was reading your comment. The company was remote-first/friendly since day 1 years ago, and along comes this guy, and gives a RTO ultimatum to all employees. That was couple of weeks ago. 3/4 (no joke) of engineering dept took severance. Other departments lost more than a half too. The company lost more than 60% of employees in 2 weeks.

There are lawsuits now because 2 weeks before RTO ultimatum, a employee union was formed so a lot of people think that RTO ultimatum was a Unfair Labour Practice or a union busting move.

The move was so boneheaded and uncomprehensible that a lot of people suspect that the CEO simply wanted to destroy the union even if that takes sinks the company.