People here don't really get upset about trains being even ten minutes late. That's normal.

And as far as safety is concerned, when every seat is full and there's already very little seat-to-seat distance, the aisle is crammed with people face to back with nothing to hang on to, and the vestibules are all full to the point that people are standing with nothing to support them if the train brakes hard, that is a crammed train. Dangerously so -- indeed, often illegally so.

And this is quite normal, routine and unexceptional at commuter times, and that is not talking about the underground, where it is routine to be packed in to the point that someone's nose is against the window (mine was, yesterday).

I'm sure there are trains elsewhere that are worse. There's nothing I can do about that; it doesn't really change my observation.

(I'm not sure there's a really good point about gratitude here, either, when the people paying for these services where they don't get a seat have to take out substantial loans to afford the annual ticket, whereas you can travel from Cape Town to Johannesburg, with a sleeping car berth, for about 20% more than the amount it costs me to travel an hour into London at off-peak times. But that's a separate point.)

Back in the 80s the trains still had guard's vans. When you've stood in the middle of a crammed, unlit, violently shaking box with nothing for anyone to hang on to, a place in the aisle seems like luxury! On the other hand, the intercity seats were more comfortable in those days, the windows opened and you didn't have to wait for the train to stop before you got off.

Yeah. I went to school on the train and did that a couple of dozen times over seven years. Also remember being horrifyingly crammed into the corridor of a former first class carriage.

> when every seat is full and there's already very little seat-to-seat distance, the aisle is crammed with people face to back with nothing to hang on to, and the vestibules are all full to the point that people are standing with nothing to support them if the train brakes hard, that is a crammed train.

That was the Metra BN line in Chicago when I lived there, at least the rush hour departures at around 5:00pm. I was on a train so full that I could not even fully get into the vestibule, I had to push people in with my body so the door could close behind me. Many times the CTA trains were similarly full.

> with nothing to support them if the train brakes hard

Generally speaking and especially when compared with trams or buses, mainline trains don't really do "hard" braking, though. Though I concede that the jerk of coming to a full stop with the brakes fully applied (during regular braking drivers and/or the train control system will ease off the brakes before stopping) may be somewhat borderline in terms of keeping your stability.

I’m sure you’re totally right, but try getting a cross-country train in the UK on a Sunday when the two trains in front of you have been cancelled. And paying £110 for the privledge. You really do get crammed in.

Also try the Tube in London’s rush hour - more like stuffed in than even crammed in. Full armpit-in-the-face experience.

I've been on one or two London trains during rush hour. Yeah, it's cramped.

I've also hung out of Cape Town trains because that's the only way to get on - all doors forced open by commuters so we can get a few more people to work.

The UK is becoming a third world country at a rapid pace, don't you worry.

I was in Malaysia in March and there was a big public artwork showing Malaysia’s commitment to the UN Sustainable Development Goals, and I thought “Sh*t we need those too!”

https://sdgs.un.org/goals

I once did a project (not freelance I hasten to add) for a wealthy and shady company based in a very expensive office in a very expensive old money postcode. They are involved in immoral, and probably illegal, activities, some of which received attention from national press. They were the sort of organisation that has disaster comms skills in house. They also had a document that proudly proclaimed how they met every single one of the UN's SDGs. Never understood how they managed to keep a straight face on that topic.

This sounds fascinating!

I’ve no doubt they did. Shame about the illiterate plebs begging nearby though.