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Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by AndrewKemendo on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:18PM (#37191559)
All war boils down to the ability to access, control or set pricing for a natural resource

The perennial Iran/Iraq conflicts originated from disputes about access to the Shatt al-Arab River starting in the 16th century - once the industrial revolution hit, then of course oil was the key resource for growth

The Overthrow of the Shah then, was based on the requirement to not be beholden to anyone but the west when pricing Oil, to ensure the west had unmitigated control of how the largest oil property set prices.

Old school conquest of territory post WWII is considered gauche, so the 21st century approach to resource conflict is to find "other means" to have the same effect of guaranteeing access to someone else's property.

I think this extremely rare peaceful period of "orthogonal conflict" that was notably devoid of multiple widespread bloodshed in war (~1975-Today) might actually come to an end in the next few decades as state capitalism crumbles under it's own weight and no coherent alternative exists.

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by enkid on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:34PM (#37191689)
The US and UK didn't overthrow the Shah, they helped him stop from being overthrown. If you can't even get the basics of the historical events we're talking about correct, you shouldn't be making broad generalizations about all of history.
Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by AndrewKemendo on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:37PM (#37191726)
I said nothing about the US or UK overthrowing the Shah
Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by enkid on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:39PM (#37191745)
Then this sentence makes absolutely no sense: "The Overthrow of the Shah then, was based on the requirement to not be beholden to anyone but the west when pricing Oil, to ensure the west had unmitigated control of how the largest oil property set prices."
Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by anigbrowl on Saturday August 19, 2023 @03:33PM (#37192272)
You need to proofread better.
Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by orwin on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:48PM (#37191818)
They put him in power on 53,they didn't 'stop' him from being overthrown. He failed his first coup and had originally too few local/regional supporters to succeed his second one.
Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by gordian-not on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:36PM (#37191707)
All war is about resources except for all the times it isn’t: religion, culture, honor/shame or ideology.

Two world wars come to mind

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by readthenotes1 on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:58PM (#37191928)
One of those was about resources. Alsace-Lorraine may want a few words about the other
Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by gordian-not on Saturday August 19, 2023 @03:23PM (#37192188)
It depends on which one you refer to because both had some relation to Alsace-Lorraine.

However, the first one broke out after a complicated system of alliances together with a non compromising attitude towards nationalism (assasination ultimatum). I file that under ideology and honor.

The second one broke out due to a really insane ideology, that although talked about resources, time and time again took resources from the war itself for its death apparatus

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by FirmwareBurner on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:23PM (#37191597)
TL;DR: throughout history several countries got super wealthy by stealing other countries' shit at gunpoint, which went out of fashion after WW2, and then had to find other avenues for less obvious colonial-like theft, usually involving toppling leaders thorough coups and installing their own puppets in place who would gladly sign off on their country's resources for pennies to large western corporations
Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by AndrewKemendo on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:28PM (#37191641)
Bingo

Extra points if your colonialism exploits an internecine conflict such that it appears that internal problems of the country, rather than exogenous meddling with state or tribal sovereignty, led to it's failure to govern (reinforcing how "correct" your form of government is)

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by tamimio on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:30PM (#37191650)
>usually involving toppling leaders thorough coups and installing their own puppets in place

Pretty much yeah, and if that fails, sanctions and economic wars

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by labster on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:43PM (#37191783)
> stealing other countries' shit at gunpoint, which went out of fashion after WW2

It didn’t go out of fashion. Industrialization made wars of conquest unprofitable by 1890-1910 or so, and it took the world that long to get a clue. (Russia, notably, still hasn’t figured it out.) If you build one factory, you make money; if you build an army to steal your neighbor’s factory, most likely you both get zero factories.

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by FirmwareBurner on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:50PM (#37191839)
You never start a war to gain some bombed-to-shit factories or barren deserts, you start wars to gain control of valuable land with resources and more easily defensible borders, get control of lucrative trade routes, and gain workers(slaves) and natural resources for your own factories.

Of course, it's much easier and cheaper these days to use your intelligence services to stage a coup in that country so that your corporations can get their bananas for free, or, planting fake WMD intelligence at the UN so you can justify going in guns blazing and your corporations can make money through weapons sales, oil extraction, logistics and reconstruction on the back of taxpayers and the intelligence services by running heroin to fund their black ops.

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday August 19, 2023 @03:50PM (#37192435)
> you start wars to gain control of valuable land with resources and more easily defensible borders, get control of lucrative trade routes, and gain workers(slaves) and natural resources for your own factories

In modern warfare, you don’t get these for free. If you’re trying to yoink from a fellow nation-state, you risk your own factories being bombed. If you’re up against a less sophisticated foe, you still sacrifice industrial production and diplomatic goodwill in excess of any base resource gains.

It’s cheaper and more fruitful to trade for those goods than it is to steal them. (Coups are no exception. They disrupt the economy and jeopardise the security situation. Much simpler to trade with Tehran than try for a coup that doesn’t result in civil war or blowback.)

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by Kamq on Saturday August 19, 2023 @05:17PM (#37193308)
You're forgetting eliminating a potential threat.

Which tends to have effects similar to what you've described. Land that isn't near a potential threat can be invested in much more heavily. Borders are easier to defend, etc.

But improvement to existing resources tends to be more attractive to those with the most resources already.

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by labster on Saturday August 19, 2023 @05:25PM (#37193375)
Other sibling comments have answered this one better, but I’ll just add: one TSMC fab is worth more than the entire natural resources of some countries. And those “slaves” you mention are also called an insurgency, which is very expensive to deal with.
Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday August 19, 2023 @03:06PM (#37192020)
> Industrialization made wars of conquest unprofitable by 1890-1910 or so, and it took the world that long to get a clue

To wit: “…much of [balance-of-power politics] theory was based on agrarian states or early industrial states. And one of the features of agrarian interstate relations was that returns to war outpaced returns to capital, which is a fancy way of saying you could get richer, faster by conquest than by development. Under those sorts of conditions, most powers were going to be, in some form, ‘revisionist’ powers because most powers would have something to gain by attacking a weaker neighbor and seizing their resources (mostly arable land and peasant farmers to be taxed). Indeed that basic interaction creates much of the ‘churn’ of interstate anarchy: everyone has an incentive to prey on their neighbors, creating the dog-eat-dog brutality of interstate interactions. The only countries without such an interest would be countries that were very small and weak, seeking to avoid being absorbed themselves.

But, as we’ve discussed, industrialization changes all of this: the net returns to war are decreased (because industrial war is so destructive and lethal) while the returns to capital investment get much higher due to rising productivity. In the pre-industrial past, fighting a war to get productive land was many times more effective than investing in irrigation and capital improvements to your own land, assuming you won the war. But in the industrial world, fighting a war to get a factory is many, many less times more effective than just building a new factory at home, especially since the war is very likely to destroy the factory in the first place. This was not always the case! The great wealth of many countries and indeed industrialization itself was built on resources acquired through imperial expansion; now the cost of that acquisition is higher than simply buying the stuff. War is no longer a means to profit, but an emergency response to avoid otherwise certain extreme losses.

So whereas in the old system, almost every power except potentially the hegemon, had something to potentially gain by upending the stability of the system, the economics of modern production means that quite a lot of countries will have absolutely nothing to gain from a war, even a successful one. Now that dispassionate calculation has arguably been true for more than a century; the First World War was an massive exercise in proving that nothing that could be gained from a major power war would be worth the misery, slaughter and destruction of a major power war. Subsequent conflicts have reinforced this lesson again and again, yet conflicts continue to occur. Azar Gat argues in part that this is because humans are both evolved in our biology (and thus patterns of thinking and emotion) as well as our social institutions, for warfare and aggression. We have to unlearn those instincts and redesign those institutions and this process is slow and uneven.”

https://acoup.blog/2023/07/07/collections-the-status-quo-coa...

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by FirmwareBurner on Saturday August 19, 2023 @03:12PM (#37192084)
> the First World War was an massive exercise in proving that nothing that could be gained from a major power war would be worth the misery

And yet the "war on terror" happened. US companies gained a lot from that even if the average taxpayer didn't.

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday August 19, 2023 @03:18PM (#37192134)
> yet the "war on terror" happened. US companies gained a lot from that even if the average taxpayer didn't

The War on Terror, and invasion of Iraq, were massive American policy failures. Had Xi not become a dictator and Putin not invaded Crimea and then the rest of Ukraine, American hegemony would be on a downturn as a result of those fumbles.

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by FirmwareBurner on Saturday August 19, 2023 @04:48PM (#37193030)
>The War on Terror, and invasion of Iraq, were massive American policy failures.

Not if you ask Halliburton

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday August 19, 2023 @07:35PM (#37194440)
> Not if you ask Halliburton

The stockholders who have seen a third against since 2006?

You’re dragging a red herring. In the past, conquest was popular because it made the conqueror as a whole rich. Today, you’re limited to scratching out whatabouts with one-off and dated examples like Halliburton. The circle of net beneficiaries rivals that of botched aid operations.

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by inglor_cz on Saturday August 19, 2023 @04:12PM (#37192671)
In every war, someone gains something, but War on Terror was detrimental to the US as a whole, and the American population understands that - which is why the hawks are really unpopular right now. The defeat of H.C. in 2016 can at least partly be explained by the fact that she was considered a foreign policy hawk.

Compare this to wars of Ancient Rome which were actually popular, because they brought home visible wealth.

Re:70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades ... by mistrial9 on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:55PM (#37191891)
in the long and interesting book "The Taking of Getty Oil" and partly in a second book "History of International Corporations in the 20th Century" (title?) they specifically talk about a post-colonial approach to oil contracts, specifically the formation of Aaramco (sp?) the National Oil of Saudi Arabia.. the US and the US Intelligence Agencies exactly and specifically created agreements with local rulers to avoid the British methods from a century earlier. This is not to say that the same US Intelligence supported local democracy, or the established rulers, without conditions -- instead the perception of the agreement, and the levers of control, and where the money went in what proportions, where changed knowingly.