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Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by vlucas on Thursday August 17, 2023 @12:42PM (#37164419)
Nothing that requires the labor of others is a human right. That's not how rights work.
Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by gottorf on Thursday August 17, 2023 @12:59PM (#37164718)
It's important to distinguish negative rights (the state cannot do X to you) from positive rights (the state is required to have X happen for you).

There is a school of thought that says the latter is not really valid, since it may (or eventually will) be that some negative rights be violated to make it happen.

Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by morkalork on Thursday August 17, 2023 @01:18PM (#37165051)
Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by churchill on Thursday August 17, 2023 @01:04PM (#37164813)
Yes, I was reading Bastiat (The Law) a while ago and he made a point that struck me: the state can't enforce positive (philanthropic) rights (i.e., you are entitled to this and that) without violating a natural right.

For the state to enforce a citizen's philanthropic right to some stuff, the have to dispossess someone else of it - after all, the state can't produce anything, it can only expropriate what's been produced.

Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by reverius42 on Thursday August 17, 2023 @02:18PM (#37165859)
Do taxes violate a natural right?
Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by churchill on Thursday August 17, 2023 @02:27PM (#37165966)
As a libertarian, I'd say yes, but I don't want to start a shitstorm, so...
Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by gottorf on Thursday August 17, 2023 @02:49PM (#37166252)
Even a libertarian would agree that some small level of taxation is necessary to fund the apparatus of the state that would enforce property rights and contracts, safeguard the border from invasion, and whatnot.

One can only dream of a time and place where government is only funded by a strict land-value tax, though...

Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by churchill on Thursday August 17, 2023 @03:55PM (#37167093)
Lol - if you study libertarianism deeply, you'll find out most of these edge cases you think a centralized government is needed can be provided by a free market. In the Private Production of Defense, Hoppe argues that property owners and businesses can buy covergae from insurance agencies who will then have a vested interest in keeping their houses and communities crime-free.

Likewise, in a contract republic (or a charter city) individuals will agree to a neutral third party to arbitrate between them if they ever have a disagreement. This can be anyone from a spiritual authority they both respect, an authority in their industry, or a private court that's built a reputation for fairness, promising to pay the private court a percentage of any arbitration settlement they bring before it.

And if the court as much as makes one unfair ruling, it will drive away new business from parties who want a neutral third party. In a contract republic, individuals will be free to have their case judged by any judge, as long as both parties agree beforehand.

Opening the justice market will make sure crime gets punished, expedite justice, and reduce its cost.

Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by dragonwriter on Thursday August 17, 2023 @04:39PM (#37167687)
> Lol - if you study libertarianism deeply, you'll find out most of these edge cases you think a centralized government is needed can be provided by a free market. In the Private Production of Defense, Hoppe argues that property owners and businesses can buy covergae from insurance agencies who will then have a vested interest in keeping their houses and communities crime-free.

If, instead of studying libertarian theory, you study history deeply, you’ll find that there is no magical distinction between private actors and government, and that when you rely on non-governmental actors to provide things like defense without a more powerful government to constrain them, that positions allows them to become a government.

> And if the court as much as makes one unfair ruling, it will drive away new business from parties who want a neutral third party.

No one wants a neutral third party, everyone wants someone that is biased towards them but which the opposing party can be conned into believing is not.

Neutral is just what you would get, were such a market viable, when both sides happen to have equal success. (Which outside of naive assumptions about perfect information, is unlikely to be normal in practice.)

Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by s1artibartfast on Thursday August 17, 2023 @10:32PM (#37170833)
There are different libertarian philosophies. You are describing anarchists.
Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by gizmo686 on Thursday August 17, 2023 @12:48PM (#37164514)
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 25:

> Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...

Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by gottorf on Thursday August 17, 2023 @01:09PM (#37164912)
Just because it's written on a document titled "Human Rights" doesn't make it so. The UN UDHR is really just a wish list of things that would be nice to have in any country. It is emphatically not a well thought-out legal document that would form the basis of a a country's laws.

Read about the recent Chilean constitution reform for what happens when people try to write a constitution based on things that would be nice to have, without seriously considering all of the nth-degree complexities that would result if those nice things were to actually be put into reality with the might of the state.

Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by voidpointercast on Thursday August 17, 2023 @12:53PM (#37164602)
So enforce it.
Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by churchill on Thursday August 17, 2023 @01:01PM (#37164756)
I think the comment above yours is referring to 'natural' rights which are generally negative (i.e., no one can take them away from you). If anything can become a right simply via declaration or popular vote, can 60% of a country's population vote themselves the right to the property of the 40%? By that logic, the Nazis had a right to exterminate the Jews because the Nazis were democratically elected.

I understand wanting to protect Hawaii's heritage, etc. but landowners should be free to sell the property to whosoever they deem fit, at whatever price.

Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by skybrian on Thursday August 17, 2023 @12:52PM (#37164587)
Legal rights can be created by passing laws. It’s possible to pass a law giving people a right to payment by the government (for example, a pension). Such payments can be used to buy goods and services that take labor as an input.
Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by cheald on Thursday August 17, 2023 @01:07PM (#37164863)
That's more correctly called an "entitlement" rather than a "right", IMO.
Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by skybrian on Thursday August 17, 2023 @06:39PM (#37169173)
It looks like an entitlement is one kind of legal right.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights

Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by slantedview on Thursday August 17, 2023 @12:50PM (#37164544)
It's hard to say that surplus wealth generated by the labor of others should be directed towards investor/owner profits, but not towards housing for workers. The difference between these two outcomes is a policy decision.
Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by gottorf on Thursday August 17, 2023 @01:17PM (#37165031)
If we're talking about housing for workers specifically, Hawaii ranks near dead-last on land-use freedom[0] among the fifty states; meaning that the state as a whole is like the San Francisco Bay Area, being very difficult to build housing to match demand[1].

This, too, is a policy decision, and fixing this one is both easier and would result in a more sustainable long-term wealth growth, compared to the state forcing the direction of the "surplus wealth" of economic endeavors.

[0]: https://cdn.freedominthe50states.org/download/2021/onesheet/...

[1]: https://www.mauinews.com/news/local-news/2022/04/uhero-hawai...

Re:Hawaii governor vows to block land grabs as fire-ravaged ... by cam_l on Thursday August 17, 2023 @07:50PM (#37169853)
Ownership is not a natural human right, that's not how human rights work.

(I too can make bald, sweeping statements without any justification or thought to reality, based purely on my gut feeling and predisposed ideology).