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Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by jayliew on Thursday March 15, 2012 @01:43PM (#3709563)
To quote pg: "A hacker who has learned what to make, and not just how to make, is extraordinarily powerful."

As a developer, it is frustrating to see fellow developers place too much importance on being able to code as a necessary ingredient for startup success.

As a hacker, I'd say that most hackers know how to make, but don't know what to make. That is to say, most startups from these type of hackers with the "if I build they will come"[1] mentality end up basically degenerating into non-profits or open-source (when their intent was to become the next big for-profit company).

To my fellow hardcore hackers. Please get over yourself and learn some non-technical skills: sales, marketing, design, product UI/UX, biz dev, getting distribution, negotiation skills, heck - some people skills! (this comment not withstanding since I'm frustrated with the comment above).

If you're going to look down on people who can't code, you should get out of your own comfort zone and do all those non-technical things I've just listed above first. Kevin Rose has a rolodex, which I'm sure has benefits to whatever his entrepreneurial venture is. You don't? Why not? Learn how to hustle.

Just because you can't code, doesn't mean you can't build a business - and vice versa - just because you can code, doesn't mean you can build a business.

/ end rant

[1] exception, not the rule

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by secretasiandan on Thursday March 15, 2012 @04:15PM (#3710371)
I think you've entirely missed his point. Note that he says: "It doesn't matter if they understand how to code or not."

His main point? "Once they have that reputation as being awesome it will stick around no matter how badly they perform after their initial success"

And I totally agree. In fact, after a success the odds are more in your favor. So if you can't succeed again, it calls into question your 'true' level of talent.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by winterchil on Thursday March 15, 2012 @07:38PM (#3711173)
There's actually a good reason that you get credit for a long time and that is successes are so rare and valuable that you deserve credit for a long time.

The vast majority of these silicon-valley companies are built with investors' money (typically from Venture Capital firms). The VC business model generates outsized returns on a few successful companies which pay for all the failures. Careers and entire funds can swing to success based on the outcome of one company so if you're a founder you deserve that credit. It also means you've returned tons of extra money to investors that pays for all your subsequent losses.

Kevin Rose specifically is an interesting case because Digg was not a success for his investors, but her personally did well.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by rhizome on Friday March 16, 2012 @04:41PM (#3715173)
So wait, the "good reason" he gets credit is for not doing the thing that causes people to give people like him credit?

To me, this all sounds like the Fundamental Attribution Error. Kevin Rose is thought to have some special talent, when really all he did was get lucky, and really, not even lucky enough to get his investors paid. His subsequent failures would seem to support this.

However, we must have our stars and Time coverboys. I would say that the reason he keeps getting biz is directly related to his fame, and not so much his business acumen or skills. Call it Calcanis Syndrome.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by jayliew on Thursday March 15, 2012 @04:42PM (#3710502)
Did Oink fail because of product, or market? If it's product, being technical will help, if it's market, being technical won't help. (edit: to add, the product worked - so it likely wasn't a problem with the product.)
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by ralphos on Thursday March 15, 2012 @08:50PM (#3711398)
Yes the product worked, but perhaps the product didn't fit the market?
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by jayliew on Thursday March 15, 2012 @09:08PM (#3711447)
Which is what I'm guessing as well. Since it's not a product-issue, Kevin's not-coding didn't hurt. Which was the point I was trying to get at. Even if he could code, that wouldn't help solve the market-fit problem.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by zerostar07 on Thursday March 15, 2012 @02:23PM (#3709811)
Sometimes there may be obstacles to what you propose. Being good at networking etc. is basically a performance skill that doesn't just depend on mindset, but also on good looks, race/culture, age, sex, general likability or other external factors. This is not mentioned often, and I might be wrong but I think it is a factor, despite the fact that the startup world presents itself as the ultimate meritocracy.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by krschultz on Thursday March 15, 2012 @03:46PM (#3710213)
I don't think 'good looks' matter as much as 'clean looks'.

Shave. Shower. Get a haircut. Despite the 'hoodie chic' look, make sure it's a clean hoodie. Or better yet, wear something nicer. (no, not a suit, but a step up from a hoodie will help people take you seriously).

As far as general likeability goes, usually that stems from people either complaining or saying offense things.

All of that is under your control.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by ahoyhere on Thursday March 15, 2012 @09:36PM (#3711506)
Body posture is more important than actual innate attractiveness. Body posture creates attractiveness.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by jayliew on Thursday March 15, 2012 @02:37PM (#3709885)
People's natural tendency to associate good looks with intelligence, etc. has been documented (IIRC), but I completely disagree that it cannot be overcome if YOU decide you will "fix" it.

Example: Sean Stephenson http://timetostand.com/ (see short video)

Not attacking you personally - but anybody, .. anybody at all who gives me that response are basically chickening out. Consider this the opposite problem of "business guy don't want to even learn how to code, give all sorts of reasons". Technical guy don't want to learn how to hustle, give all sorts of reasons. Again, Sean Stephenson.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by zerostar07 on Thursday March 15, 2012 @03:53PM (#3710252)
Yeah this is not meant to be an excuse at all. But it used to be that code/innovation mattered more than words, PR etc. Certainly the oldest tech companies were of the "build it and they will come" type. If nowadays who you hang around with matters so much, does that mean that information tech has somehow already peaked?
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by jayliew on Thursday March 15, 2012 @09:33PM (#3711502)
Customers don't care about your cool technology, they pay you to solve a real problem they have. That has always been the case. If you see a successful company with cool technology, it's because it ALSO solved a real pain the customer had. There's plenty of startups doing "cool stuff" but it doesn't solve a problem, and therefore it doesn't go anywhere.

So I'd reframe the question: it's more about solving real problems. If you can solve it with cool new innovation/code, great. I assume the goal we're talking about here is to build a for-profit business.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by Drbble on Thursday March 15, 2012 @07:23PM (#3711128)
Well yeah, look at all the hot startups out there. Except for a few orgs at the extreme high end of tech, a YC style startup is a marketing project with basic IT. Dropbox and a couple others might be an exception.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by anigbrowl on Thursday March 15, 2012 @03:41PM (#3710191)
I was at an academic conference earlier this month, and several of the speakers made affectionate jokes about one of the speakers - how he couldn't shut up, how he was impossibly argumentative, how he was terribly rude, and basically how he was a bit of a troll. And they were right, he was all those things, plus he looked a bit like a frog. Imagine a short frog with glasses, a thick Noo Yawk accent, and the social graces of a falling brick.

And yet he was such a persuasive and entertaining speaker than even when I thought he was dead wrong I wanted to hear more and find common ground with him. I liked him even when he was being an ass, and even in cases where I knew he was wrong (eg when he deliberately skipped over some significant issue because it undermined the argument he was making).

The things you mention help, but are by no means essential. You don't even need to believe in yourself, as long as you believe sufficiently in your idea.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by xpose2000 on Thursday March 15, 2012 @04:22PM (#3710398)
I agree with you: "Just because you can't code, doesn't mean you can't build a business - and vice versa - just because you can code, doesn't mean you can build a business."

I have worked for start-ups where people told me what to do, and also have my own bootstrapped start-up. I prefer the later. I think it is important to be well rounded in abilities from coding to business development. That way, you can see through people's bullshit a lot easier, and there is plenty of that going around in the industry.

Having said that, you can be an ideas person, but those ideas better be successful more times than not. Success five years ago and failures at every turn since does not exactly invoke confidence.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by jayliew on Thursday March 15, 2012 @04:49PM (#3710522)
This is a hits driven business. How many people do you see with a string of successes and zero failures? Kevin has had a few ventures, with varying degree of "success", which is more than most people can say. Consider the statistically typical case: it's complete failure and lost of time, money, and sweat. If you even break even, you're already way above average. So having even just a series of small wins is a big deal (not saying that Kevin's "win" was small - I have no inside info)
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by lrobb on Thursday March 15, 2012 @05:27PM (#3710708)
Wow... A hits driven business?

I had never thought of it like that before, but it makes so much sense and explains so many things...

Like why google is willing to pay 1-2 million per developer... But half of the bay area companies on careers.stackoverflow don't offer relocation.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by dennisgorelik on Thursday March 15, 2012 @07:35PM (#3711166)
One of the reasons why companies do not offer relocation is that if person can be lured to move into Bay Area then the same person can be lured to move out of Bay Area.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by peacemaker on Friday March 16, 2012 @08:49AM (#3713058)
I'm sorry but that can't possibly be the reasoning. They don't offer relocation because there are so many developers in that area anyway and startups are notoriously tight on their budgets (justified or not) so would rather not spend the money. Being fairly new to the US, yet a long time developer, I attempted to get work out west (I'm east coast right now) but no-one in the bay area would pay to relocate it seemed so I guess I'll be staying here for a while!
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by sanderjd on Thursday March 15, 2012 @08:13PM (#3711294)
Here's an idea from a non-idea-guy: do for those of us who have no clue how to approach your list of non-technical skills what Codecademy has done for those with no idea how to approach programming. Start us slow, treat us like we know nothing, but give us the chance to prove otherwise. Allow us to work on our own time, and charge us orders of magnitude less than an MBA costs. I would pay for that.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by chernevik on Thursday March 15, 2012 @10:40PM (#3711694)
Probably not doable. Not good at this stuff myself, but at core it seems to be driven by recognition of emotional states and making emotionally intelligent responses. This sort of thing isn't beyond learning -- disciplines like art, music, sports develop the core skills, and we can all become more self-aware. But it doesn't lend itself verbally stated principles.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by sanderjd on Thursday March 15, 2012 @11:37PM (#3711837)
Obviously it can't look much like Codecademy and perhaps it is not about verbally stated principles. Maybe the bigger question is: how does the progress that has been made by people using technology to reduce the financial and social barriers to learning technical material translate to learning "softer" material? If we want to eventually live in a world where the university in its current form has been superseded (and I do), someone needs to answer that question. It sounds hard and uncertain but very valuable if successful - a winning combination if you ask me.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by chefsurfing on Friday March 16, 2012 @02:10AM (#3712204)
I am certain a world full of autodidacts would supersed the university system we see today. For these autodidacts the universe might truly become a "University of Life". I am also certain that the true barriers keeping most people from becoming autodidacts are not financial or social but rather built by the schooling system into our minds. This schooling system itself was probably setup to create obedient soldiers and weapons technicians so as to win wars. Can someone please queue Pink Floyd's "Another Brick In The Wall" [1]?

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U&feature=fvwre...

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by sanderjd on Friday March 16, 2012 @10:22AM (#3713416)
That barriers are "built by the schooling system into our minds" is exactly what I meant by my "social barriers". Sorry for not being clearer, we agree on that point. I still think there are very real financial barriers to education, perhaps not for the true autodidacts who can learn everything from a book, but for everyone else who requires some structured instruction.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by chernevik on Friday March 16, 2012 @08:48AM (#3713056)
This is actually a solved problem. Start here: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1643
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by chefsurfing on Friday March 16, 2012 @01:58AM (#3712174)
Not one person is born with the skills listed. They are all learned through experience - Same as programming. If anyone has learned anything valuable from hearing "verbally stated principles" please send me a link to that podcast! However verbally stated instructions on how to pass through a specific educational experience are more likely helpful to the learning process.

"I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." - Confucius

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by sanderjd on Friday March 16, 2012 @10:30AM (#3713448)
Nothing you say is wrong, but neither is any of it an argument against instruction. It is incredibly helpful to hear and forget before you see and remember before you do and understand.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by corkill on Saturday March 17, 2012 @05:52PM (#3718323)
It's called mixergy.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by _sentient on Thursday March 15, 2012 @02:20PM (#3709799)
I completely agree.

Even better, learn to both hack and hustle. That is truly where the magic happens.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by rayhano on Friday March 16, 2012 @08:30AM (#3712991)
Google is full of developers that have proven they have no idea.

Therefore hiring an ideas guy makes perfect sense...

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by serdary on Friday March 16, 2012 @05:47PM (#3715466)
well said, and even they have some guys w/o titles, just to organize and filter employees' ideas, but still.. (of course if they are still working at google)
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by mindcrime on Thursday March 15, 2012 @05:32PM (#3710728)
"if I build they will come"[1] mentality end up basically degenerating into non-profits or open-source (when their intent was to become the next big for-profit company).

I get your point and mostly agree, but just want to stress that "open source" and "for profit" are not mutually exclusive. There are a handful of companies out there making a nice profit specifically by focusing on open source.

That said, clearly it (building an "open source company") should be a conscious decision, and you have to understand the subtleties that go along with it.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by eli_gottlieb on Friday March 16, 2012 @12:15AM (#3711941)
Of course, there are also those of us who know what to make, but don't have loads of seed money to build an ecosystem from the ground up...
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by ootachi on Thursday March 15, 2012 @05:14PM (#3710646)
In fact, I'd say you should do more. Stop being a programmer. It's hard to get a job as a developer these days, and it'll all be outsourced to India and China soon anyway. Instead, you should go into sales and marketing.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by untog on Thursday March 15, 2012 @05:23PM (#3710685)
* It's hard to get a job as a developer these days*

...uh, where exactly? Everywhere I know of is crying out for developers. The case for outsourcing is hugely overstated- having your entire development team half the world and a seven hour time difference away is a very real issue.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by ootachi on Thursday March 15, 2012 @05:26PM (#3710703)
In the Bay Area.

Everyone claims to be crying out for developers, but they reject all the candidates they're presented with, so in practice it's hard to get a job as a developer.

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by untog on Thursday March 15, 2012 @05:29PM (#3710723)
I think what you mean to say is "it's hard to get a job as a developer if you're not a good candidate".
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by ootachi on Thursday March 15, 2012 @05:56PM (#3710818)
More like "it's hard to get a job as a developer because companies' perceptions of 'good candidates' exclude everybody".
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by tibbon on Thursday March 15, 2012 @06:25PM (#3710918)
If you're actually a good developer (and easy person to get along with, not a serial murderer, etc) and in the bay area and can't find a programming gig... I don't know what you're doing wrong.

I'm not the best developer in the world, and I practically get offers in just going to bars in SF...

Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by eli_gottlieb on Friday March 16, 2012 @12:22AM (#3711957)
I'd actually like to back him up on this, at least partially. There is an outcry for developers in the Bay Area, but mostly just in the Bay Area and mostly just for web/mobile developers. The shortage is hyper-specialized, and thus so are the job requirements, thus excluding most of us who call ourselves developers.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by untog on Friday March 16, 2012 @09:21AM (#3713151)
Hm, well I'd say that if you are any other kind of developer looking for a job, it's really not that difficult to transition into web development. If it isn't what you want to do then that's fair enough, but it's where the market is.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by snowwrestler on Friday March 16, 2012 @12:35PM (#3714009)
There is strong demand for developers in the Washington, DC area as well.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by mattdeboard on Thursday March 15, 2012 @06:28PM (#3710929)
Can you please provide some advice on how to transition from my dead-end career as a programmer into a lucrative and fulfilling future in sales or marketing?
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by ootachi on Thursday March 15, 2012 @07:08PM (#3711079)
Learn to hustle.
Re:Kevin Rose Will Join Google by mattdeboard on Thursday March 15, 2012 @09:13PM (#3711454)
How do you think I became a programmer in the first place? I left marketing and hustled to become a programmer. I'm sorry you've shaved your beard or lost your passion or can't find a job. That's not the story for me. Hard work has taken me good places, and continues to do so.

Hope you don't spend the rest of your life either trolling or being a miserable wretch shitting on successful people. :)