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Re:Downfall Attacks by mike_hearn on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @04:03AM (#37059859)
One possibility nobody mentioned yet: the chip vendors don't invest a ton of time looking for them because they don't actually matter that much.

Bear in mind, security researchers are incentivized to find things to build their reputation. It's very often the case that they claim something is a world-shaking security vulnerability when in reality it doesn't matter much for real world attackers. Has anyone ever found a speculation attack in the wild? I think the answer might be no. In which case, why would chip vendors invest tons of money into this? Real customers aren't being hurt by it except in the sense that when an external researcher forces action, they're made to release new microcode that slows things down. Note how all their mitigations for these attacks always have off switches: not something you usually see in security fixes. It's because in many, many cases, these attacks just don't matter. All software running on the same physical core or even the same physical CPU is either running at the same trust level, or sandboxed so heavily it can't mount the attack.

Re:Downfall Attacks by dijit on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @05:05AM (#37060251)
> Has anyone ever found a speculation attack in the wild? I think the answer might be no.

this is known as the Y2K paradox.

The Y2K bug had the potential to be very dangerous, but due to a wide-reaching campaign and tonnes of investment the millennium came with very few issues (there were still some) leading many to speculate that the issues were overblown

Re:Downfall Attacks by flerchin on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @09:43AM (#37062531)
It's also the anti-tiger rock.

Tigers exist, and can kill you, so you'd better hold this rock at all times.

Re:Downfall Attacks by dijit on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @04:23PM (#37067877)
Yeah, but we have practically usable variants of meltdown and spectre.

the only reason its not useful to deploy them is due to a massive amount of herd immunity (and the fact you consume a lot of CPU when trying the attack making it clear - bad combo for an attacker)

Re:Downfall Attacks by yencabulator on Wednesday August 16, 2023 @11:52AM (#37148966)
> Note how all their mitigations for these attacks always have off switches: not something you usually see in security fixes. It's because in many, many cases, these attacks just don't matter.

They have off switches because they can have severe performance costs, which most security fixes don't have.

> All software running on the same physical core or even the same physical CPU is either running at the same trust level, or sandboxed so heavily it can't mount the attack.

Former is simply not true. For example, EC2 avoids mixing tenants on the same core, but even the AWS serverless stuff doesn't do that, for cost reasons. For most end user computers, this is blatantly not true.

Operating system level sandboxing is largely irrelevant if the attacker can simply read secrets from other processes running on the same core at the CPU level. Most processes will have a way to smuggle the stolen goods out.

Re:Downfall Attacks by mike_hearn on Thursday August 17, 2023 @05:02AM (#37159023)
By "sandboxed so heavily" I meant browsers, which don't allow shared memory multi-threading, tight control over CPU instructions or high resolution timers, so it's very hard to mount specex attacks there. I've seen claims it can be done but very few demos, and the only demo I remember trying didn't actually work.

By "running on the same physical core" I meant simultaneously. You can usually wipe uarch state when switching between tenants pretty well. If AWS aren't doing this then that's something for them to solve but I'm pretty sure major cloud users don't have to worry about these attacks as so many only affect hyperthreads that are running concurrently and it's not cost prohibitive to avoid mixing tenants that way.

Re:Downfall Attacks by l33t7332273 on Thursday August 17, 2023 @06:27PM (#37169059)
Software running on the same CPU as the kernel is not necessarily at the same trust level.