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Re:TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, and NXP to build fab in Germany by somenameforme on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @01:01AM (#37058878)
Imagine if during the Iraq War, Russia suddenly decided - you know, I want a piece of this. They made some platitudes about really feeling for the people of Iraq, and then started sending massive amounts of supplies, including long ranged weapons, tanks, depleted uranium munitions, countless rounds of cluster bombs (!), and even jets (soon enough) to the Iraqis. Not only were these weapons effective enough to manage to kill tens of thousands of Americans, but some were even being used to carry out largely random attacks in major American cities. At the same time the Iraqis decided to start doing things like assassinating high profile American figures, like journalists or speakers, who argued in favor of the war.

What do you think's going to happen? That we're going to say "Guys, that's not cool. Ok I guess we'll just withdraw from Iraq, after all our reasons for invading were complete rubbish anyhow. Darn, you win this one - Russia!"? Come on. It would have just led to an endless escalation, well not 'endless' because there is one final escalation from which there is no coming back. That people lack the empathy to see how dangerous the path we're treading is only because the media has spent years creating this absurd dichotomy in the world where America - good, the ever-shifting enemy of the day - bad. So naturally doing anything to your enemy is okay, because they're bad, and we're good.

Re:TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, and NXP to build fab in Germany by flohofwoe on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @03:02AM (#37059520)
Ah the good old whataboutism.

Here's some counter-whataboutism: what about the Korean and Vietnam wars (the Soviet Union even sent their own pilots with the jets), and countless other smaller conflicts in Africa? The Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc were pumping weapons into those conflicts or have been invading themselves to support "their side". Same with Russia in Syria btw.

At least the free west is upfront and open about the weapon deliveries down to the last helmet:

https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/schwerpunkte/krieg-in...

Re:TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, and NXP to build fab in Germany by somenameforme on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @03:55AM (#37059816)
The main reason that propaganda and dehumanization are such a typical part of war, is that it helps prevent people from considering the weight of their own actions, let alone the perspective of the enemy. What I described is not a whataboutism, it's a hypothetical illustrating exactly what's happening today, except flipping the roles of the participants. Yet of course it feels alien enough that you instinctively want to fight against it - I must be tricking you or engaging in some sort of deceptive rhetorical device. I am not.
Re:TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, and NXP to build fab in Germany by flohofwoe on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @05:07AM (#37060278)
All I see is you parroting Russian propaganda, sorry. The whataboutism comes in when you pick the US-led invasion of Iraq over non-existing WMDs, which of course was also unjustified. But one invasion being unjustified doesn't suddenly justify another (it only does in Soviet and Russian propaganda logic) - also note that the western countries were extremely divided over the Iraq invasion (e.g. France, Germany, Canada and the Scandinavian countries couldn't be arsed to join), while there's pretty much universal agreement in the so-called 'collective West' that supporting Ukraine with weapons and training to defend themselves is the morally right thing to do.
Re:TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, and NXP to build fab in Germany by cpursley on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @06:24AM (#37060690)
Careful, many people on HN (as smart as they are) have little tolerance for nuance and empathy.

And they like to respond with “whataboutism!” - which is ironically, a Soviet propaganda term.

Americans are particularly myopic and view the world though a post-history lens.

Re:TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, and NXP to build fab in Germany by flohofwoe on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @07:05AM (#37060955)
Whataboutism is an old Soviet propaganda technique, but AFAIK they didn't come up with the term (they must have had an internal name for it of course, but somehow I doubt they called it whataboutism)
Re:TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, and NXP to build fab in Germany by _kbh_ on Wednesday August 09, 2023 @03:22AM (#37059618)
> They made some platitudes about really feeling for the people of Iraq, and then started sending massive amounts of supplies, including long ranged weapons, tanks, depleted uranium munitions, countless rounds of cluster bombs (!).

Not sure what the (!) for the cluster bombs is about, both Ukraine and Russia never signed the cluster bomb ban, and both Ukraine and Russia have been using cluster bombs in both this conflict but also since 2014.

This isn't anything new, the only change is that they are now being provided by America, and the American ones appear to fail less.

> Not only were these weapons effective enough to manage to kill tens of thousands of Americans, but some were even being used to carry out irregular attacks in major American cities.

I'm not sure that the provided weapons are being used to carry out any 'irregular' attacks on Russian cities?.

But even if they were, did the Russians really think they could enter this war and bomb cities into dust and never get bombed themselves?.

> That people lack the empathy to see how dangerous the path we're treading is only because the media has spent years creating this absurd dichotomy in the world where the American cause of the week is just and right, whereas the enemy - pure evil. And so in this context people seem to rarely ask themselves whether what we're doing is right or wrong, because how can doing harm to pure evil ever be wrong?

I think its perfectly morally acceptable to arm a country trying to defend itself against an imperialist invader.

I don't think the path that is being tread is in any way shape or form dangerous, why would Russia losing this war be any different to the other wars that both Russia and the Soviet Union lost?.