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Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by scyzoryk_xyz on Sunday August 06, 2023 @05:31PM (#37027039)
Look, I’m not informed or an expert here, but if it’s being given away for free, then the search itself is not the “product”. The way I understand it, Google’s monopoly is over the ad market.

Stoller wrote a book on the subject which I never properly got through in its entirety, but it included a deep dive on what a monopoly is. You are correct - market share is not an anti-trust violation in it’s own. My assumption is that they will be arguing over whether Google is exercising its total control over the system to prevent competition from emerging, and using that control to extract all the value for itself. All while crippling functionality for the customers, not us search engine users in this case - but the advertisers.

Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by huitzitziltzin on Sunday August 06, 2023 @05:45PM (#37027178)
The DoJ is welcome to make a claim on monopolizing the ad market. The case here is about monopolizing the search market.
Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by scyzoryk_xyz on Sunday August 06, 2023 @05:59PM (#37027308)
Isn’t the whole point that they’re tightly intertwined? You pay to advertise in the relevant search results of your customers.
Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by huitzitziltzin on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:09PM (#37027405)
That’s not the law, so it’s irrelevant to the legal issues.
Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by scyzoryk_xyz on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:56PM (#37027804)
I don’t mean the law. I mean how the actual ad/search product actually works. As a Google customer I pay them to present my stuff the way I want it to my customers when they search for stuff about the things I sell. That’s the product, no?
Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by huitzitziltzin on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:47PM (#37028207)
That’s not relevant to the monopolization claim here though.
Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by HWR_14 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @09:25PM (#37028868)
On the contrary, antitrust law has a lot of rules about using dominance in one industry to prop up another.
Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by jahewson on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:15PM (#37027461)
There’s a 2nd, later case where the DoJ is suing Google over their ad network:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-googl...

Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by TheCoelacanth on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:40PM (#37027664)
> You are correct - market share is not an anti-trust violation in it’s own.

I think that entire line of jurisprudence is a tragic mistake.

The wording of the law is crystal clear: "shall not monopolize", not "shall not monopolize unless it's just a really good product".

A 95% market share should not be allowed under any circumstances.

Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by huitzitziltzin on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:49PM (#37027745)
There are a whole bunch of edge cases you aren’t thinking about. Markets can be highly local (hospital markets, eg.), firms go out of business, new products enter new markets (smart phones, tablets), even defining “the market” is hard (does Sirius XM have a meaningful “monopoly” on satellite radio?). So your “make 95% market share illegal” idea is quite challenging (actually impossible) to work out
Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by flangola7 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:21PM (#37027996)
Difficult but absolutely not impossible. There's whole domains of law dedicated to identifying and defining these kinds of fuzzy edge cases. Anyone that tells you it is impossible has malign motivations.
Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by huitzitziltzin on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:39PM (#37028139)
Hey - if you think you can do it go ahead. No one in the economics profession would oppose a usable definition of market which covered all of these cases (or even a subset of them) and made it easy.

We aren’t failing to offer definitions here bc we’re in the tank for big tech. To immediately suggest we have malign motivations isn’t charitable. It’s genuinely a hard problem.

Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by YurgenJurgensen on Sunday August 06, 2023 @07:46PM (#37028198)
Wouldn't fixing all those edge cases defeat the point of something simple like a 95% rule? You'd be at the point where 95% is neither necessary nor sufficient and all of those laws covering the edge cases are the real law.
Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by mistercheph on Monday August 07, 2023 @12:24AM (#37030110)
You have rediscovered the American legal system, the laws that cover the ‘edge’ cases are aptly named ‘case law’
Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by scyzoryk_xyz on Sunday August 06, 2023 @06:53PM (#37027783)
That’s what makes this whole subject so hard to argue. You can’t just be persecuted for being successful. They have to prove you’re actually preventing others from being successful. And how the do you do that without a whole bunch of wishy washy woulda coulda shoulda’s?

And I agree that it shouldn’t have been “allowed” but here we are.

Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by jsunderland323 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @09:29PM (#37028910)
I don’t think the problem is Google being the best at search. The problem is that you cannot possibly have your user or customer’s best interest at heart when you own the most dominant browser and smartphone os by market share AND when you’re a search engine and ad exchange. Owning those lower level parts of the stack (os and browser), which are network effects loaded, is the anti-competitive piece.

Google as a default to other browsers doesn’t bother me. It’s the being the ad broker, the exchange, the browser, the os and the search engine that are problematic. They have demonstrated over two decades that they cannot protect the interests of either their users or the ad buyers. Disabling cookies is essentially meaningless when you’re forced to sign into your browser or os. Absolutely no ad exchange can act in the interest of their users’ privacy when they have a browser or os that mandates you to sign in. And yes, even ad buyers get screwed by Google’s exchange (Google’s real customers). There are many fraudulent publishers that stack ads but get paid out for false impressions, Google still collects on fake impressions and has little interest in decreasing the fraud since they have a 30% take on the impressions.

The ideal outcome is that chrome is spun off, android is spun off, and the ad exchange is spun off. Google can keep its suite of productivity tools and search engine and run ad words. That’s a completely reasonable and still extremely valuable business that is highly defensible. I think their interests can align with their users and customers in that scenario. As it is right now, I don’t think you can have the business model they have and not have serious conflicts of interest with users and advertisers.

Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by huitzitziltzin on Sunday August 06, 2023 @09:32PM (#37028933)
Essentially none of the issues you cite are antitrust issues. You could be right or wrong on the merits but they won’t be part of this case about the monopolization of the search market.

(There are really important antitrust issues in the ad exchange but that isn’t the case the government brought!)

Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by jsunderland323 on Sunday August 06, 2023 @10:25PM (#37029305)
I was mostly venting into the void (sorry). I admittedly don't know the first thing about antitrust.

But to your earlier point: > On the other hand, the case that Google is going to make (and which I think is going to be really hard for the government to overcome) is this: we (google) give our product away for free and so do our competitors. What’s more, the cost of switching search engines is literally zero: just type Bing instead of Google.

Don't you think the counter argument to this, is, "No it's not that easy to just go to bing when you buy out the default search on rivals' browsers and operating systems and have the browser and mobile os with the world's largest market shares"? I get that the attack here is directly on search but it would be surprising to me if this wasn't part of the case. It seems insane to bring this case if there isn't a component focused on the browser and OS conflict of interest in search.

Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by huitzitziltzin on Sunday August 06, 2023 @11:27PM (#37029726)
>> Don't you think the counter argument to this, is, "No it's not that easy to just go to bing when you buy out the default search on rivals' browsers and operating systems and have the browser and mobile os with the world's largest market shares"?

I’m looking for an analogy for you. The claim is that Google has monopolized the search market. It’s difficult to find actual monopolies in real life bc generally antitrust regulation works well (pace Lina Khan).

Think about a small city with two independent hospitals which then merge. That’s closer to a monopoly. There is a potential harm to consumers here bc traveling to go out of your local market for hospital services brings real costs: travel time, inconvenience, etc. That gives the newly merged hospitals power in the market. (Maybe not to the level of a monopoly, but likely substantial market power nonetheless.)

Applying something like this analogy to your counter argument: literally all the consumer has to do to avoid Google’s so-called monopolization of the search market is type the letters “b-i-n-g-.-c-o-m”. That’s entirely different from the hospital case.

It’s going to be very very very hard for the government to establish that google has anything like monopoly power here. Remember: making a better product and as a result having a large market share is not a crime. Google is going to say that since consumers can costlessly switch to a competitor who is also free, the reason they have 95% market share is bc their product is better.

I find it very hard to imagine that they will lose this case. It’s possible! But it seems really unlikely to me.

Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by pclmulqdq on Sunday August 06, 2023 @11:28PM (#37029728)
Sorry, but in any other market for goods, being the main supplier, the biggest supply-side brokerage, the biggest exchange, and the biggest demand-side brokerage would be considered a blatant antitrust violation. Somehow, Google thinks they can get away with it in ads.
Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by huitzitziltzin on Sunday August 06, 2023 @11:41PM (#37029802)
Not true. Look at the market for meat. There are lots of farmers, a small number (really three or four) processors (who appear to carve up the national market into non overlapping regions) and then a large number of retail customers.

To me that looks like an actual antitrust violation but the DoJ and FTC aren’t investigating bc they are obsessing about “big tech” uselessly and bringing bad cases they are going to lose!

If you want your regulators to actually do something about a lack of competition in the US economy (which they really should be doing!) there are a ton of markets worth investigating before they waste their time on this loser of a case.

Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by pclmulqdq on Monday August 07, 2023 @12:36AM (#37030190)
So the meat market is generally pretty healthy with an oligopoly at one stage of the supply chain? That actually sounds a lot better than I thought the meat market was. "Carving up" like that is also not a big problem unless they collude to do it, and it's a natural thing for an oligopoly market to do: each of the companies focuses on the niche they are best-equipped to serve, keeping in mind that their competition can come in if they get too greedy.

It's also a lot better than the ads market is, with literally one dominant player that monopolizes all stages of the supply chain. This is literally what Standard Oil did, controlling the wells, the refineries, and the distribution railroads to shut out competitors.

If you look at financial exchanges, there's a very good reason for the brokers and exchange to all be different companies.

Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by sam0x17 on Monday August 07, 2023 @12:49AM (#37030280)
FTC/DOJ not investigating doesn't mean this isn't a flagrant monopoly that would be prosecuted by a non-corrupt FTC/DOJ
Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by scyzoryk_xyz on Monday August 07, 2023 @12:50PM (#37037068)
I think you should really delve deeper into Stoller’s work because he covers all these different industries on a regular basis. I remember the meat story for some reason as well.

But, hey, maybe you’re right. Maybe it’s a bad case being done for show. Slap on the wrist, back to business as usual sort of deal.

Re:The First Big Antitrust Trial of the Century Is About to ... by sam0x17 on Monday August 07, 2023 @12:47AM (#37030267)
Yeah we really need to expand what counts as monopolization, and, you know, actually trust-bust like we did at the turn of the last century. It's getting ridiculous.