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Re:A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the f... by amluto on Monday July 31, 2023 @10:31AM (#36943100)
> new stuff that came out in the last 20 years.

There isn’t really that much of this. Let’s consider an oven:

Good temperature control: accurate, precise and reliable temperature sensors (e.g. thermocouples) have been around for a long time, as have switching devices that are plenty high speed to make an excellent oven. PID control would be easy with 1980 technology or current technology. Ovens with good temperature control are nonetheless rare.

Forced convection (aka a fan): no new technology required. And they’ve been around for years.

Direct outdoor exhaust: this was available in the 80s and 90s. Not sure where it went.

Good insulation: nothing fancy here. Mineral wool and fiberglass have been around for a long time. Even silicone rubber gaskets that tolerate oven temperature are not particularly new.

Touch screens: most of them are still worse than the old analogue controls.

Steam with good controls: this is pretty new and very rare.

I suspect most of what’s going on is that fancy appliance makers try to keep BOM cost very low and that helps and whistles sell appliances. (Compare a $1500 induction cooktop to a $7k fancy brand gas cooktop. I suspect the BOM cost on the induction unit is rather higher. The gas unit has some cheap brass or bronze castings (I think I read somewhere that those burners cost under $20), a potentially shiny piece of stainless steel sheet, and really cheap controls. The obvious safety mechanism to turn off the gas if the burner isn’t lit? Nonexistent. The only thing $7k buys you is a nice brand name and maybe slightly more solid construction than a much cheaper unit.)

Re:A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the f... by PaulDavisThe1st on Monday July 31, 2023 @11:06AM (#36943733)
> The only thing $7k buys you is a nice brand name and maybe slightly more solid construction than a much cheaper unit.)

Typically you also get: more BTUs, better simmer control, easier repairability (due to construction design).

I'm not arguing it's worth the money (which is why I got my $15k stove from craigslist for $2k :)

Re:A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the f... by kjkjadksj on Monday July 31, 2023 @11:28AM (#36944099)
Three things that hardly matter for thousands. You can still boil water and simmer with the cheap stove. My parents stove is probably well over two decades old and never needed a repair for anything. I imagine a techician will have an easier time repairing a basic gas range where all the parts are generic compared to getting the miele certified mechanic out or whatever.
Re:A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the f... by rsynnott on Monday July 31, 2023 @11:46AM (#36944407)
People who are just boiling water and simmering probably aren't buying the expensive stove, tho.
Re:A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the f... by amluto on Monday July 31, 2023 @01:16PM (#36945808)
more BTU: BTU on a gas stove is ridiculous — they are so lossy that the flame pattern is a bigger deal.

better simmer control: even a lot of expensive gas stoves have fairly bad simmer

repairability: I regrettably own a fancy Thermador stove that is hard to repair — extracting the crappy ignition units requires a special tool that has been discontinued.

If you want excellent temperature control, get a Breville Control Freak. It outperforms everything else (generally by far), it’s offensively expensive at $1500, and it’s also cheap at $1500 if you think of it as the best stove that just happens to have only one burner.

You’ll also discover that 1800W (~6100 BTU/hr) is about right for most purposes with pans up to 12-14" at near 100% efficiency. You do not want 15000 BTU/hr delivered to your pan for any purpose other than boiling water or maybe reducing a big stock if you are stirring actively.

Re:A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the f... by PaulDavisThe1st on Monday July 31, 2023 @02:15PM (#36946635)
> You do not want 15000 BTU/hr delivered to your pan for any purpose other than boiling water

Wok afficionados may differ with you here. I get by on 10k BTU/hr.

Re:A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the f... by rsynnott on Monday July 31, 2023 @11:42AM (#36944343)
Yeah, ovens last more or less forever, and haven't had significant efficiency gains in a long time. They're probably the thing you're least likely to want to replace. There's often far more of an incentive with, say, fridges; if you have a 20 year old one, the replacement will likely pay for itself in a few years in power savings.

> The obvious safety mechanism to turn off the gas if the burner isn’t lit? Nonexistent.

... Wait, surely these are mandatory ~everywhere by now?

EDIT: Huh. Apparently they are _not_ required in the US (except maybe in apartment buildings) and are not common there. Weird; they're not very expensive.

Maybe it's an American Rugged Individualism thing. While I find the flame failure devices in my gas stove extremely irritating (they're particularly conservative, and won't reliably acknowledge that there's a flame until about 5 seconds after it's lit) I recognise that they are for my own good; this is probably very European thinking, though :)

Re:A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the f... by sokoloff on Monday July 31, 2023 @12:45PM (#36945312)
I'm trying to think how I would reliably prove flame in a way that would resistant to annoying false negatives in the face of a very low simmer. (Somewhat ironically, this is probably the most important setting for which you'd need it. I'm not in any real danger of having a full-bore gas burner go out. I am in danger of having the lowest possible simmer blow out undetected.)

Over a long enough period of time, a sufficiently sensitive raw temperature sensor is probably good enough, but that's not likely to be cheap nor reliable/long-lasting.

Re:A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the f... by amluto on Monday July 31, 2023 @01:21PM (#36945877)
Wow. I have literally never seen a flame failure device on a residential stove in the US.

I’ve seen them on gas fired ovens with pilot lights. (Don’t get a gas fired oven with a pilot light. As far as I can tell, they have no redeeming features unless you like the broiler hidden under some of them. They make for pretty bad ovens, and they suck for indoor air quality.)

Re:A fridge from 70 years ago has better features than the f... by rsynnott on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @05:20AM (#36954043)
For whatever reason, while gas stoves are fairly common in Ireland (I think they are in decline now, as induction offers most of the same advantages, along with its own), gas oven are practically non-existent; haven't seen one in years.

Didn't realise they were still a thing in the US, though it makes _sense_, I suppose; on a 110V system an electric oven is going to be a more expensive wiring job than on a 230V one.