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Re:The Caging of America by sliverstorm on Sunday March 11, 2012 @07:11PM (#3691562)
I can't help but think that, given this quote:

More than half of all black men without a high-school diploma go to prison at some time in their lives.

The first step is simple & straightforward. Fix education (or what is preventing them from getting an education) first, then tackle other problems with prisons.

Re:The Caging of America by cullenking on Sunday March 11, 2012 @07:24PM (#3691608)
Fixing education will take twenty years, whereas fixing 90% the prison problem could be as simple as pardoning all non-violent drug offenses. Of course, you have to do that across 50 states plus the federal level, however it's a single concept. If we are going to start somewhere, that's easily the most appropriate place.
Re:The Caging of America by disc on Sunday March 11, 2012 @07:28PM (#3691620)
Your first step is simple and straightforward just like saying "go fly to the moon" is simple and straightforward. Above and beyond the limited resource distribution we struggle with today (where does increased educational spending come from? Medicare? Defense Spending? Police?) there's an anti-education attitude that has worked it's way into lower socio-economic culture. I think combating this culture component is just as large (if not larger) a job as providing the educational resources.
Re:The Caging of America by crusso on Sunday March 11, 2012 @09:50PM (#3691998)
I'm not googling for them just now, but I know I've seen graphs that show that as we've spent more and more money on education, we've seen no affect on educational metrics (test scores, basic competencies, etc.)

I don't think it's a money problem. It's a problem with an intractable public education system in this country that's only really concerned with its own power and growth. We could solve that problem with the stroke of a pen by eliminating the monopoly that the current public education system has upon our educational tax dollars.

Re:The Caging of America by tokenadult on Sunday March 11, 2012 @09:16PM (#3691921)
The first step is simple & straightforward. Fix education (or what is preventing them from getting an education) first

That is not simple and straightforward because powerful interest groups don't want education to be reformed along those lines. "The education system is a formalised, bureaucratic organisational structure and, like any bureaucratic organisational structure, it strives for maximum autonomy from external pressures as its cardinal principle of survival. While ostensibly devoted to the education of children, teachers, school administrators and local education officers must nevertheless regard parents acting on behalf of children as a force to be kept at bay because parental pressures in effect threaten the autonomy of the educational system. . . . I would hold that the stupefying conservatism of the educational system and its utter disdain of non-professional opinion is such that nothing less than a radical shake-up of the financing mechanism will do much to promote parental power." -- Mark Blaug, "Education Vouchers--It All Depends on What You Mean," in Economics of Privatization, J. Le Grand & R. Robinson, ed. (1985)

It would be a distinctly good idea, and would surely reduce crime rates, to reform education along the lines of ensuring that all pupils in schools in the United States learn fundamental literacy and numeracy. According to the PISA international education studies, some countries do much better than the United States in this regard.

http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/17/26/48165173.pdf

http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/50/9/49685503.pdf

Re:The Caging of America by yummyfajitas on Sunday March 11, 2012 @10:32PM (#3692106)
The problem doesn't seem to be in the school system. The US education system is #1 in terms of teaching literacy to people of Asian descent and #2 in teaching literacy to people of European descent. There is insufficient data to compare to other groups.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/2011004_1.pdf (See tables R1 and R3, which give breakdowns of the PISA data you are citing.)

However, you might be right that knowledge of literacy is a problem - crime in the US does tend to be disproportionately committed by groups of people who have low averages on PISA literacy tests.

Re:The Caging of America by tokenadult on Sunday March 11, 2012 @11:17PM (#3692206)
Not significantly so in comparison to Korea, Finland, Canada, or New Zealand; anyway the more meaningful comparison among countries based on PISA data seems to be the comparison found in the PISA document I linked above. It would be worthwhile also to include more Caribbean countries in the data set.

http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/17/26/48165173.pdf

After edit: I just saw this possibly relevant link in the local newspaper:

http://www.startribune.com/local/north/142258375.html

Re:The Caging of America by omonra on Sunday March 11, 2012 @10:42PM (#3692129)
I'm afraid this thread's commentators are not inclined to go there. This is a very PC thread, with main culprits being 'powerful moneyed interests'.
Re:The Caging of America by twoodfin on Sunday March 11, 2012 @09:41PM (#3691974)
We tried requiring schools to ensure each and every student achieved literacy and numeracy, under penalty of having the school labeled as "failing" and potentially being forced to allow its students other options.

It was called "No Child Left Behind", and sadly is now overwhelmingly unpopular. The kind of disciplined (and occasionally rote) learning that leads to success in some of our peer nations is called "teaching to the test". Well-to-do parents don't like hearing that their children's school is "failing" just because poor children are being shuffled from grade to grade without learning much.

I really don't know what can be done. Money isn't the answer: Look at the DC public schools.

Re:The Caging of America by harshreality on Monday March 12, 2012 @11:07AM (#3693765)
The problems with NCLB are several. Nobody disagrees that having students do better on standardized tests is a good thing, everything else being equal.

NCLB is set up to punish schools that don't meet their improvement goals. The schools, wary of being punished themselves, punish teachers whose students aren't meeting the goals.

While teachers are busy trying to teach basic math and language literacy to the bottom rung of the class, the students who could excel if they were challenged end up left behind.

For reasons beyond a teacher's control, a class may not meet the requirements, and the teacher is punished. You can look at a teacher's career and determine with reasonable accuracy whether the teacher is good, but looking at one or two year samples does not give the same accuracy. Yet that is exactly what NCLB encourages schools to do.

There was plenty I learned in grade school that standardized tests never tested. The optimal school and teacher strategy under NCLB is to strip out all that excess baggage and spend every waking moment figuring out how to get students to perform better only on what is tested.

I disagree with your notion that other countries are doing things right. They are doing things better, perhaps, or maybe the parents in other countries encourage students more not to give up when they're struggling with homework; the opposite of which is a major failing that seems to be common in America. An educational paradigm can be garbage but students will still learn more if it has support from parents.

Khan Academy's model or something even more radical is the direction all basic skills education needs to move toward. Teaching basic skills is critical, but they need to be taught in a way that both encourages under-performing students and that doesn't hold back better performing students. That's the only way to leave no child behind.

Re:The Caging of America by diogenescynic on Sunday March 11, 2012 @11:46PM (#3692259)
I think the problem is systemic in nature “More African American men are in prison or jail, on probation or parole than were enslaved in 1850, before the Civil War began”

"Growing crime rates over the past 30 years don’t explain the skyrocketing numbers of black — and increasingly brown — men caught in America’s prison system": http://www.laprogressive.com/black-men-prison-system/

"As a consequence, a great many black men are disenfranchised, said Alexander — prevented because of their felony convictions from voting and from living in public housing, discriminated in hiring, excluded from juries, and denied educational opportunities."

I read this and think there must be something more complex going on than just graduation rates. Too many interest groups are getting rich trying to fix a perpetually broken education system and the same goes for prisons.

Re:The Caging of America by rsheridan6 on Sunday March 11, 2012 @08:14PM (#3691761)
If it's so simple and straightforward, why hasn't it been done after decades of effort and countless failed or marginally successful programs?

It's probably somewhere between difficult and impossible, not simple and straightforward.

Re:The Caging of America by hariananth on Sunday March 11, 2012 @07:20PM (#3691591)
Sure, education is a great indicator for incarceration. But "fixing" education is neither simple nor straightforward.
Re:The Caging of America by sliverstorm on Sunday March 11, 2012 @07:24PM (#3691606)
Certainly education is not a simple problem, but if it is the root cause of incarceration then the simple answer for incarceration is fix education, no?
Re:The Caging of America by anigbrowl on Sunday March 11, 2012 @07:35PM (#3691633)
Yes, but it's not the root cause. it's a factor in criminality, but criminality and incarceration are imperfectly correlated.
Re:The Caging of America by sliverstorm on Sunday March 11, 2012 @09:22PM (#3691937)
Imperfectly correlated is somewhat of a misnomer, IMO. Nearly every observed correlation is "imperfect". Hell, that's basically what "correlation" implies.
Re:The Caging of America by anigbrowl on Monday March 12, 2012 @02:02AM (#3692503)
Poorly correlated then. Lots of people are incarcerated for things most people consider inappropriate because the criminal justice system is so awash in perverse incentives.
Re:The Caging of America by tsotha on Sunday March 11, 2012 @09:43PM (#3691980)
Criminality and lack of education are correlated, but the relationship isn't necessarily causal. It's just as likely they're both influenced by other factors.
Re:The Caging of America by ars on Sunday March 11, 2012 @08:38PM (#3691832)
> Fix education

Lack of education is not the cause, it's a symptom of the same thing that causes the incarceration, i.e. it's a confounding variable not an independent cause.

Re:The Caging of America by unicron on Sunday March 11, 2012 @08:17PM (#3691773)
Perhaps they do not wish to be educated? That is my impression.

Don't sort out education, sort out the social stereotypes and cultural issues that turn people into pieces of shit. Education will fix itself then.