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Re:At this company, we are family by oldandboring on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:26PM (#36865971)
This is a refreshing comment to read. HN and Reddit discussions about employment in the US is often just a dumpster fire of "America bad", half-baked theories and observations from the perspective of the employee, where US workers have no rights and would be rioting in the streets if we hadn't been brainwashed by corporate media.

Here on earth, what you wrote is much closer to the truth. The American economy is awash with opportunities to work for small businesses, with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny.

Re:At this company, we are family by hutzlibu on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:40PM (#36866235)
"The American economy is awash with opportunities to work for small businesses, with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny. "

If they all are all happy and free to chart their own destiny - why are those contract things then pretty much standard in the US (as it seems to me)?

And maybe things are not perfect on either side of the atlantic?

I would be fine with less regulations and hire and fire here in europe btw - but I would be not OK, having to sign such contracts. But I don't see, why we can't have both. Meaning employee respecting contracts - but not mandated from above.

Re:At this company, we are family by winstonprivacy on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:48PM (#36866402)
> why are those contract things then pretty much standard in the US (as it seems to me)?

They aren't standard by any means.

Re:At this company, we are family by halostatue on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @04:42PM (#36869142)
Severance NDAs and noncompetes have been increasingly used against minimum wage workers. Imagine not being able to get a job at Quiznos because you worked at Jimmy John's, which at one point had such a noncompete. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-jimmyjohns-settlement-idU...)

When things that we are used to (but unhappy with) because our jobs involve a lot of proprietary technological secrets trickle down to sandwich shop minimum wage workers…it’s not worth saying that they’re not standard.

There’s a reason that multiple state legislatures are working to ban noncompetes entirely, and it’s not because they’re uncommon.

https://archive.is/kLOFV

Re:At this company, we are family by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:34PM (#36866116)
> with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny

What about the European system prevents that for the employee?

Re:At this company, we are family by hutzlibu on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:42PM (#36866287)
That we don't have hire and fire, meaning when you take a new job it comes with all kinds of regulations for the company - making them not wanting to change people so often.

Otherwise we surely can do this in europe as well, just with a little bit more friction.

Re:At this company, we are family by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @02:05PM (#36866721)
So it in theory adds more opportunities for the worker, assuming they are in high demand. Of course, if a European leaves their company they don't lose their health coverage.
Re:At this company, we are family by FredPret on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @02:24PM (#36867035)
It also creates demand even for low-skilled work, since there are more low-margin / seasonal businesses that are feasible under the easy-come-easy-go system.
Re:At this company, we are family by FirmwareBurner on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @02:24PM (#36867037)
>What about the European system prevents that for the employee?

1. Less employment opportunities due to no VC funding, and risk averse mentality of entrepreneurs meaning next to no EU SW product companies. That's why the best paying jobs in EU tech scene are mostly US companies.

2. Language barriers and bureaucracy differing from country to country means huge friction and risk when moving to a country you're not familiar with, along with the added overhead of learning a new language on top of having a full time job plus the challenge of building new social circles with a different culture.

This might even be a fun challenge when you're young and single, but when you have a spouse and maybe even a child, things get even more complicated fast when it comes to immigration, especially if your spouse doesn't work in tech or any other career where English is normalized at work or even needs her credentials translated and locally equivalated by the authorities.

A friend of mine got laid off as part of his company going bankrupt with his last two wages going unpaid. The bureaucracy, letter bombardment and appointments in dealing with the authorities to try to recoup those two months wages, all in German, a foreign language to him(and me), makes the experience completely exhausting and I can feel he just wants to give up.

Imagine someone from Ohio having to learn a new language when moving to California or New York. Not having to deal with bureaucracy in a foreign language for every state is a huge asset for the US and a weakness of the EU labor mobility.

3. Racism, xenofobia, discrimination and glass ceilings from the locals, when you come from the "wrong" country.

Re:At this company, we are family by SketchySeaBeast on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @04:25PM (#36868841)
All those seem fairly reasonable except for the last when comparing Europe and the United States. Though you're not describing general work with #1, you're describing dev work. Unless this whole discussion is only in reference to software devs, but I don't think it is.
Re:At this company, we are family by chinchilla2020 on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @05:17PM (#36869729)
Never experienced #3 in Europe. Language barrier is a non-issue since most countries are fluent in English.

#4 is definitely a bit of an issue. Europe is surprisingly regressive, even compared to the US. Lots of rude comments towards non-white coworkers.

Re:At this company, we are family by FirmwareBurner on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @05:30PM (#36869841)
>Language barrier is a non-issue since most countries are fluent in English.

Totally not true at all. Maybe in northern Europe but it's definitely not my experience in Austria. Language barrier is defiantly an issue here, especially outside the SW dev world.

Plenty of government offices you have to interact with don't or don't want to speak English (mostly due to older grumpy staff). Plenty of police officers don't speak English (also the older staff). Plenty of doctors, nurses and specialists don't speak English. Plenty(most?) companies outside of SW require German knowledge. Plenty of landlords and building management companies or utility companies don't speak or don't want to speak English. The list can go on, especially if you mostly land with older staff memebers. The language barrier is real. Sure, sometimes you can get lucky and land a young contact person who speaks great English and will want to help you, but that's quite rare, most will tell you "nur Deutsch" and then you're shit out of luck as a lot of the issues need to be solved over the phone or in person.

Saying English is all you need to get by is a gross over-exaggeration and does not match the srruggles me and my friends had here at all. Sure, you can order a beer and a pizza in English just fine, but any and all official bureaucracy needs to be done in the local language, not in English, often on the phone or in person, on paper and the spot, without the possibility to easily google translate the thing you're signing, like you can on web forms. And believe me, there's a lot of paper work: contracts, insurance forms, complaints, etc.

Also, it's respectul to learn the local language to integrate, unless you want to make life difficult for yourself, and live in isolation in exapt only bubbles.

Re:At this company, we are family by code_runner on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:54PM (#36866512)
its always pretty shocking to me how much things turn into this weird us v them mentality when its really just two different systems with plenty of pros and cons.

Every system could be improved and if you prefer one the other isn't by default inherently evil.

People within both systems can suck.

Re:At this company, we are family by FredPret on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @02:03PM (#36866671)
This is so true. I didn't mean to dunk on the European system - just wanted to point out that the US system is not without significant advantages.

I'm from Africa and both places are like heaven on earth in comparison.

Re:At this company, we are family by grecy on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @05:44PM (#36869996)
> with employees free to move around and chart their own destiny.

I've always found it much easier to "chart my own destiny" when my healthcare is guaranteed, forever, for free, whether I have a job or not.